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The Fascism of Today's Left (Embracing Godwin's Law)

Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:56 PM EDT
politics, obama, economy, congress, republican, president, democrat, wall-street, recession, fraud, big, bailout, banks, stimulus, socialism, right, left, nazi, treasury, franks
By Socrates1
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The generally ignored lesson in the story about the boy who cried wolf is that eventually the wolf did show up.  I’m asking that the reader consider that fact and hold any objections until carefully considering what I am about to suggest.  This is not really an attack on the rank and file Liberal/Leftist/Progressive.  This is an attempt to separate the rhetoric from the reality and examine the facts.  In this case I’d like you to consider that actions do, sometimes, speak louder than words.

This all started when I wondered to myself why it was that with Democratic control of both houses of Congress and a Progressive President so little had been done to address the fraud and mismanagement that has become so glaringly evident in relation to the “Big Banks” as well as the largest Wall Street Firms.  We can argue who did what when and we can point fingers at various elected officials, but regardless of those answers, and even regardless of whether we agree on the particular names, it seems to me that we would have to agree that not much has changed.  I would also suggest that there would seem to be no bigger target for someone truly embracing the ideology of the Left than Big Banks and Big Wall Street.  We have “capitalists”, the “uber wealthy”, manipulation of the system, obscene profits, insider trading, incredible compensation, “unpatriotic” behavior, exploitation of the poorer by the richer, the economy in shambles, the rich getting richer while the rest of us are getting poorer, secret meetings in “smoke filled rooms” creating and implementing policy at the highest reaches of government, and possibly the complete collapse of the American Economy and yet, no real attempt to curb any of these excesses but rather we see even more dollars being printed to prop these very same players up.  To coin a phrase…”What gives”?

It was then that I realized how fascist the Left had become, not to suggest that most of the politicians from the Right are any less culpable.  I ask that you not react emotionally, at least quite yet, to the term fascist, rather I ask that you examine the facts, and allow me to compare these facts to some frightening similarities prior to, and during, Nazi Germany.

Without getting mired in the minutia of what, exactly, constitutes the Left, I would suggest that its adherents are opposed to large privately held corporations, are opposed to huge discrepancies in pay schedules, are opposed to large profits being made solely by manipulating capital, and claim that their focus is on “the little guy”.  The interesting thing is that the NAZI party started out, as suggested by its name, as a “socialistic” party.  Let’s not get bogged down on that point for now, but let’s just take a look at what actually occurred.  Regardless of its beginnings, no one can really argue that Germany’s largest corporations were nationalized to the point that the State became the legal owner of the enterprise.  The point is that the “rich” of the nation co-opted the movement and thereafter maintained an uneasy alliance with the State.  I’d suggest what we are seeing now is much closer to that scenario.  What we have is the leaders of the so-called Left joining with the uber wealthy, the government workers, and the larger Unions which, in my view, is the very definition of fascism.  We see no real programs designed to help the “main street’ economy and even the programs that claim to aid the less fortunate don’t empower those it purports to aid, but rather ties them even more closely to government. “Stimulus” funds and bailout dollars generally circulate amongst the traditional partners of a fascist State.  Even the rhetoric that “we” all need to make sacrifices for the good of the State, meaning the interests I just mentioned, are fully in line with my understanding of fascism.  It doesn’t take much of a stretch to include the fact that we are heavily committed to a war with no end.  Plenty has been said about our corresponding loss of freedoms, but this article is written to suggest that, for now, one should avoid denying the fascist tendencies of our present leadership simply because we don’t see that many “brown shirts” around, although some would suggest that recent union actions suggest that we may not have long to wait.

I ask you to consider the following:

What form of government joins government, business, public workers, and private unions?  What type of government relies heavily on government spending?  What type of government demonizes its domestic opponents for who they are, rather than what they believe?  What type of government calls their opponents “the enemy”?  What type of government wishes to retain complete control of the economy and dole out its favors as it sees fit?  What type of government favors Big Business over small?  What kind of government attacks its ideological opponents, including, primarily, religious value systems?  What kind of government attempts to change the history of the past to form a foundation for the future?  What kind of government disseminates propaganda and attempts to control the press? I'd suggest that one might pick and choose from the list, but only one form meets the criteria in total.

Before you cry “foul” I suggest you look not at what you have been promised, but what you are getting.  This is no exclusive attack on the Left, or those who purport to be from the Left.  I’m simply suggesting that the same people who question who the true “Christians” are might do well to take a good look on their own side of the aisle.  I’ve made no secret of my disdain for the Left, but at least let’s see you address some of the problems with the type of solutions that most of America can support.  In other words, on the one issue that you had a winner…and had the power..you failed miserably.

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  • Public Discussion (124)
Socrates1

"It's the economy, stupid"....I'm not suggesting "roundup's" are imminent...just consider the parallels.

  • 18 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:57 PM EDT
jade-log

I find that at the baggers right and the finge left a desire to control the rest of us. I wouldn't call it fascism I'd call it crazy. [By the way the fasces were the bundle of sticks wrapped around an axe in leather. They were held by gaurds surrounding the dictator when the dictator was among the public. We are hardly there.]

  • 5 votes
#1.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:01 PM EDT
Socrates1

Thanks for your comment, I just wish you'd addressed the subject.

  • 12 votes
#1.2 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:33 PM EDT
Alan Curtis Montgomery

It is the elites both left and right who are the fascist, you trying to place them all or mostly on the left is wrong actually most of them are part of the authoritarian-right. The Nazi party were very far from being true socialist but were fascist who used the state to crush people. In fact if you read history during that time it was the democratic socialist and others on the left who were the Nazi's biggest critics in Nazi Germany. Even if you consider Stalin he was no Marxist but an authoritarian dictator who created a system of government far different then the Communist State Karl Marx advocated for. Actually in true Marxism the sate ceases to exist and all means of production and redistribution is placed directly in the people's hands. Your analysis is thus flawed because you fail to see where the problem lies it is not with the left or right it is with the elite. That said it is an provocative and thought out article though I believe you are holding onto to false paradigms and your libertarian right economic ideology is clouding your judgment. The true fascist are the ones within the government who work secretly from the public eye and think of ways to control and dominate the public and they are not left or right just fascist elite bureaucrats who's only goal is to expand the wealth, power, and influence of the elite within society at the expense of the ordinary people.

  • 9 votes
#1.3 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:59 PM EDT
Socrates1

Actually, if you read the article, I specifically mentioned that the politicians of the Right are no less culpable. I'm just wondering why those whom the Left elected aren't being held to the fire on this issue as opposed to, for example, the "health insurance bill", not to get into a discussion on it, but didn't this issue deserve as much, if not more, attention from those on the Left?

  • 12 votes
#1.4 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:03 PM EDT
Alan Curtis Montgomery

Yes I do not like the direction Obama and other elites are trying to take the left and feel they are being way too cozy with the wealthy elites and large multi-national corporations and way to supportive of the Patriot Act, Police State, and the Neo-Conservative foreign interventionist policy. That is not the left I support, in fact I reject it and it is not left at all just a repackaging of the authoritarian right masked by some social spending. The truth of the matter the authoritarian right is the ruling ideology in Washington in both parties. The Democrats just care a little bit more about social programs is all. There is some who are not a part of this ideology like Bernie Sanders on the libertarian left and Ron Paul on the libertarian right but most fall on the authoritarian right. The authoritarian left is almost non-existent in this country rather both parties are on the authoritarian right on a worldwide political scale. I did read your article all of it and appreciate the work that went into it I only meant to suggest it is not the left doing it but the authoritarian right of both parties. Most I know on the left are outraged of what some in the Democratic Party have done to the party in the last two decades and criticize it for shifting so far from its values and beliefs to adopt a center authoritarian-right platform. President Obama is not of the left not even close and neither is many Democrats today they are positioned on the authoritarian right. This is not just my opinion but where they actually fall politically. Only Bernie Sanders and a few Progressive Democrats are the only ones I agree with most of the time, the others are sell outs in my opinion and corrupt.

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:36 PM EDT
Socrates1

And having said that, I simply don't understand why no party has arisen to address those concerns...I know you will disagree when I suggest the T-Party actually does, but, that being said, where is the T-Party of the Left? Even in your post you attempt to blame "the Right" when I am simply asking why, for example, is there the big to do about the ludicrous notion of a Theocracy when a particular issue, supported by a majority of the American People, and fully in line with the Left's ideology and stated goals, gets absolutely no play.

I'm really not interested in a right/left flameout here. Forget all the other "socialistic notions" which actually also fully meet the objectives of totalitarians on both sides, and consider the one area where an actual blow against the "evil corporations" could be stuck, what happened?

btw..speaking of flameouts, I haven't read any of the other new comments, so we'll see.

  • 6 votes
#1.6 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:02 PM EDT
multifariousone

What form of government joins government, business, public workers, and private unions?

What does this even mean? Who's "joined" these entities. Who's even suggested "joining" these entities.

You're right about one thing though, "it's the economy stupid" and the stupid ones were the Bush/Cheney administration that started two completely unjustified, unnecessary and unfunded war that have cost trillions (you'll remember that at the time they claimed that Iraq would only cost a few billion, or maybe you don't remember or are too obfuscated to even have noticed) while giving huge tax breaks to the wealthy plutocrats.

What type of government relies heavily on government spending?

A government that is trying to lead its country out of a deep recession caused by the insane idea that if you deregulate markets those markets will "self-regulate".

What type of government demonizes its domestic opponents for who they are, rather than what they believe?

A Republican government led by Bush/Cheney who demonized anyone who opposed the senseless illegal war in Iraq as "unpatriotic".

What type of government calls their opponents “the enemy”?

Once again, A Republican government led by Bush/Cheney who demonized anyone who opposed them. See Plame, Valerie.

What type of government wishes to retain complete control of the economy and dole out its favors as it sees fit?

A totalitarian communist one. See North Korea, China.

What type of government favors Big Business over small?

A Republican led congress that refuses to fund a jobs bill mainly directed at benefiting small business.

What kind of government attacks its ideological opponents, including, primarily, religious value systems?

Again, a totalitarian Communist regime. China and North Korea are the only active examples that I can think of. Although there are fascists on the right who claim that America is a "Christian nation" and condemns anyone who disagrees with them- that qualifies.

What kind of government attempts to change the history of the past to form a foundation for the future?

One led by Republican/Tea Baggers. See Bachmann, Michelle and Perry, Rick. Also see: Revisionist History 101: Texas Edition

What kind of government disseminates propaganda and attempts to control the press?

A Republican led one:

In a stunning blow to what very little remains of the Bush administration’s political credibility, the president’s former press secretary Scott McClellan has published a book indicting the White House for launching an “unnecessary” war in Iraq based on false “propaganda.”

I’m simply suggesting that the same people who question who the true “Christians” are might do well to take a good look on their own side of the aisle.

No one questions the true "Christians" (defined as followers of the teaching of Jesus the Christ), what is questioned is the false piety of those who call themselves "Christians" but who do not live Christian values. You know, liars like Perry, Bachmann, Boehner, McConnell and most of the rest of rest of the totally hypocritical right wing of American politics - and their misguided followers of course.

So the real question once again is how anyone who promotes totalitarian fascist ideals as you do can call themselves a "Christian"?

  • 11 votes
#1.7 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:53 AM EDT
Reply
Don Overton

Often knew you didn't know what a fascist is and isn't and you just proved it.

  • 19 votes
Reply#2 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:33 PM EDT
aqua surf-1123675

DNFTT.

  • 1 vote
#2.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:21 PM EDT
allypal

He doesn't know what a fascist is.

  • 4 votes
#2.2 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:17 PM EDT
Reply
MattInTX

From Dictionary.com

Fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly
suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all
industry,commerce,etc.,and emphasizing an aggressive
nationalism and often racism.

You should probably learn what these words mean before using them in an article.

  • 20 votes
Reply#3 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:41 PM EDT
silverhawk63

That sounds like the DNC and Obama's whitehouse staff rolled up into 1 group.

  • 10 votes
#3.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:58 PM EDT
Don Overton

silverhawk63

Like you would know.

  • 11 votes
#3.2 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:01 PM EDT
Simba1chief

Concur - this is clearly applicable to the RIGHT today, not the LEFT. Silly damned article

  • 14 votes
#3.3 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:05 PM EDT
Orly Holmes

Is it not an ideal of the left to nationalize this nations oil industry? Is ''school choice'' not vociferously fought tooth and nail by these in order to maintain a statist monopoly? Didn't the left demand that FOX be ''abolished'' for its own criticisms of this administration? Is not their demand that government control the decisions of private enterprise in the area of hiring processes and international migrations? Is the demand for the ''individual mandate'' not a form of regimentation -by-government?

While not ''fascist'' in and of themselves, they do bespeak to the dictates of an authoritarian belief system.

  • 7 votes
#3.4 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:10 PM EDT
Fla Pat

Is it not an ideal of the left to nationalize this nations oil industry?

No. Show where this has been the case.

Is ''school choice'' not vociferously fought tooth and nail by these in order to maintain a statist monopoly?

No. Vouchers only benefit a small number of students - most poor income families would not benefit. I do not know what a statist monolopy is so it certainly could not be my goal.

Didn't the left demand that FOX be ''abolished'' for its own criticisms of this administration?

No. some individuals may have but the left as a whole staunchly supports freedom of speech however misguided and ignorant it is.

Is not their demand that government control the decisions of private enterprise in the area of hiring processes and international migrations?

No. Once again show any action to support this allegation.

Is the demand for the ''individual mandate'' not a form of regimentation -by-government?

Mandates have been in force in all 50 states for years even in red states. I guess you got us there.

  • 9 votes
#3.5 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:37 PM EDT
Socrates1

I provided my list, but be that as it may..how about the real question I asked in the article?

Why all the time, energy, and political capital spent on a "Health Insurance Bill" which will clearly increase the size of government,while at the same time increasing the profit and power of the insurance companies and further tie the industry and the government together along with the medical establishment and all forms of health care. while at the same time putting the power of the state behind the collection of premiums at the expense of the "little guy" and the smalller businessman.

Instead, why not attack the "evil capitalists" that the Left constantly use as boogeymen as being the allies of the Right? And, with the full support of the people? Perhaps because the rhetoric of the Left does not actually match the intent? It seems to me that it is the Right who is becoming splintered along these lines, and yet the Left continues to enjoy support based on rhetoric alone. No wonder they need to demonize their opponents, should the rank and file understand what is at stake they might desert in droves.

  • 4 votes
#3.6 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:10 PM EDT
multifariousone

this is clearly applicable to the RIGHT today, not the LEFT. Silly damned article

No sillier than any of what this "author" writes.

  • 5 votes
#3.7 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:56 AM EDT
Orly Holmes

Fla Pat:Lets get started.

''We, the government, should own the refineries'' Remarks,Rep. Maurice Hinchley [ D-NY] June 04, 2008.House Oversight Committee

''This liberals would be all about having the government move in and take over all of your operations'' Remarks, Rep. Maxine Waters [D-Ca] to SHELL Oil CEO May 24, 2008 House Oversight Committee

''Why doesn't the president go down there, nationalize the industry, and get the job done for the people''? Remarks, Chris Matthews. MSNBC HARDBALL, May 16,2010.

RASMUSSEN REPORTS June 14,2008: ''Plurality of Democrats Support Oil Industry Nationalization'' [ at 37% of these, the highest of all political demographics].

This makes up nearly the total number of self-identified leftwingers or ''progressives'' in the nation with room to spare.

As ''school choice'' is opposed the by entirety of AFT rank and file members this renders your position suspect. The liberal-left has long arrayed itself against school choice demanding that we support and finance public institutions which are most certainly, a monopoly and equally, government monopolies.

CNN Mar.11,2009:''Obama: Dems Wrong To Kill School Vouchers''

The Olympian [Washington State] Apr.21,2011:''Liberal Democrats Favor Choice In Abortion, Oppose It In Education''

The CATO Institute Mar.21,2010: ''Voucher Vote A Double Negative For Democrats''

The Arizona Republic Mar.04,2007:''Elite Democrats Should Get In Step With School Choice''

and so on. There are hundreds of such articles and critiques over more than a decade of the relationship between Democrats and the government public schools monopoly which is increasingly providing a shoddy product,and is completely resistant to reform, as we see here.

The Los Angeles Times Sept.15,2011: ''Student SAT Scores Lower In All Aspects''

www.foxnewsboycott.com for the liberal attempts to abolish this cable network.

tnvalleytalks.com Jul.13,2011 ''FOX News Must Go Away''

www.act.credoaction.com [ Petition to abolish FOX NEWS]

www.msnbc.com THE NEWSVINE Mar.07,2011: ''FOX Banned In Canada'' [with the usual liberal suspects weighing in on banning FOX south of the 54-40 line].

In a word, SOLYNDRA. Here the administration controlled and held the purse strings through its direct interventions into private enterprise not in one, but several instances based purely upon an ideological requirement based upon demands by its base that we move more quickly towards ''green jobs''. Then too, with the device of the liberal/lefts clear support of affirmative action, this becomes a decider based upon origin and race, who and who not be hired or even allowed a higher education equally based upon a government policy.

No they have not. Until Obamacare came down the pike, there was no such thing as an ''individual mandate'' and its infringements upon the 10th and 14th amendments as being argued now by a succession of federal benches who are rejecting this device. That it remains embraced by liberals who view ''single payer''aspects within this unconstitutional framework, remains an obvious portion of its support among this ideological demographic.

  • 5 votes
#3.8 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:45 PM EDT
SquawCraw

RASMUSSEN REPORTS June 14,2008: ''Plurality of Democrats Support Oil Industry Nationalization'' [ at 37% of these, the highest of all political demographics].

This makes up nearly the total number of self-identified leftwingers or ''progressives'' in the nation with room to spare.

-------------------------------------------------

Orly: 33% of Americans "self identify" as Democrats. So if 37% of those people truly believe in nationalizing EVERYTHING (which is simply not the case, but let's just say it is for the sake of the argument) that means that about 11% of DEMOCRATS believe that (1 in 9). However, as a ratio of Americans, less than 4% would qualify under your scenario as "socialists". Does it really surprise you that, in this day and age, 1 out of every 25 Americans might be a "socialist" (whatever that term actually means)? If that shocks you then I submit that you need to get out more and expand your social circle.

  • 2 votes
#3.9 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:31 PM EDT
Fla Pat

Orly Holmes.

You have failed to produce one piece of proposed legislation that calls for nationalizing the oil industry. No legislation that calls for shut down of Fox news - your Canada example was in response to Fox giving false and misleading reports.

  • 2 votes
#3.10 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:02 PM EDT
multifariousone

''individual mandate''

You are entirely wrong. The "individual mandate" was a Republican proposal made long ago.

The concept of the individual health insurance mandate originated in 1989 at the conservative Heritage Foundation.

It was made by the Heritage Foundation because the major beneficiary of the mandate is health insurance companies.

The individual mandate was put into the ACA for two reasons:

1. Our health care system needs to control costs and the mandate contributes to that cost reduction and,

2. The insurance companies demand it.

  • 3 votes
#3.11 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:12 PM EDT
Orly Holmes

Fla Pat: You are being disengenous. For I was not reffering to ''legislations'' in the original post which your responded to but to a belief system shared by leftwingers , or ''progressives'' or whatever it is they call themselves these days. It is these belief systems that generate attitudes which comport with those policies pursued by fascist societies. Bear in mind that the cart of ideology always precedes the horse of fascism. When individuals or groups speak of ''nationalizing'' aspects of private enterprise as these exist within a democracy or republic, demanding more government control beyond that which is allowed them by legal precedent,or call for the silencing of media organs who produce ideologically opposing views , they are engaging in fascistic mores.

multifariousone: Yet you ignore the fact the the ''Heritage Foundation'' is not the government. The then-Democrat-dominated Congress passed this as a law. Not as a platform discussed by members of a private thinktank. We are acting beneath the individual mandate as a law passed by Congress. That it has been deemed unlawful by constitutional considerations, has been already the subject of several federal judicial reviews. Yet Democrats continue to embrace the thing where Independants and Republicans [ including their TP cohort] , do not.

  • 2 votes
#3.12 - Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:15 PM EDT
multifariousone

Yet you ignore the fact the the ''Heritage Foundation'' is not the government.

I know that Heritage is not the government. I also know that Heritage is the heart of the Republican Party.

The then-Democrat-dominated Congress passed this as a law. Not as a platform discussed by members of a private thinktank. We are acting beneath the individual mandate as a law passed by Congress. That it has been deemed unlawful by constitutional considerations, has been already the subject of several federal judicial reviews. Yet Democrats continue to embrace the thing where Independants and Republicans [ including their TP cohort] , do not.

I'm not sure what this gobbledygook means except you seem to be ignoring that other lower courts have upheld the mandate and it will be up to the Supreme Court to decide the fate of the mandate.

I also know that the insurance companies love the mandate as it brings them millions of more customers.

I also think that the mandate, as it's constructed, will be upheld as it is constitutional in my opinion and my opinion is just as valuable as yours. You've got your opinion and I have mine but it is only the opinion of the Supreme Court that matters.

We'll all just have to wait to see what the SCOTUS decides.

Personally I'd rather see the SCOTUS overturn the mandate. That will force single payer which is the way it should be.

  • 1 vote
#3.13 - Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:43 AM EDT
Reply
Ian-2690048

The very fact that you conflate Liberalism, Progressivism and Leftists as one thing clearly indicates why you conflate Socialism and Fascism as one thing. Given that you don't even understand the different political attitudes and movements it's hard to take anything you say seriously. Par for the course here in America. You'd clearly be shocked to know that in other countries Liberal parties and Progressive parties are separate. That would be because they have different stances. And traditional Leftists politics has nothing to do with either.

Neither Liberals nor Progressives would ever, EVER stand for nationalization of private corporations. To even say so is ludicrous and shows how either brainwashed you are or how little actual research you've done.

  • 13 votes
Reply#4 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:00 PM EDT
Socrates1

Actually I am no longer shocked when people from a certain side of the aisle choose not to address the subject.

That subject being the cozy relationship between the groups I mentioned, and the lack of action by anyone purportedly on the Left against the Wall Street/Big Bank Consortium. One would think it tailor made, if the actions were to agree with the rhetoric.

  • 7 votes
#4.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:38 PM EDT
Fla Pat

That subject being the cozy relationship between the groups I mentioned, and the lack of action by anyone purportedly on the Left against the Wall Street/Big Bank Consortium.

Many actions were taken by this administration to address the groups you mention. However it was not the left that insisted pretty much all legislation be watered down to the point of ineffectiveness. Obama never really had a filibuster proof Senate so all proposals were subject major compromise. To this day vacancies in administration departments are not filled because of right wing hold up in the Senate.

You are naive at best to say the left has allowed the monied interest to dominate our gov't and economy.

  • 7 votes
#4.2 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:51 PM EDT
Socrates1

No, I would suggest that it is you that is naive in suggesting that the poor officials on the Left just couldn't get things done over the objections of the bad..bad...Right.

They expended plenty of energy on the Health Bill, while ensuring all the usual suspects got what they wanted, why not on an issue that really meant something and fell squarely in line with their ideology?

  • 6 votes
#4.3 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:05 PM EDT
Fla Pat

They expended plenty of energy on the Health Bill,

And did not get anything like the ideal bill they and most Americans wanted. Seems the conservative s and insurance industry took care of that to the detriment of the country IMO.

Spin it however you like, it is apparent the right clings to policy and governance that has brought this nation to it's knees except for the select few that continue to throw money around to see nothing changes.

  • 7 votes
#4.4 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:15 PM EDT
XNihil0Zer0

No, I would suggest that it is you that is naive in suggesting that the poor officials on the Left just couldn't get things done over the objections of the bad..bad...Right.

44 Senate Republicans are blocking confirmation of any nominee to head the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau. There's no way to spin that to make it anything but obstructionism.

In order to get healthcare passed they had to use a Republican idea, insurance mandates.

  • 11 votes
#4.5 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:54 PM EDT
aqua surf-1123675

Liberals/Communists just want to seize everything, from corporations to private property. Redistribute the wealth. #4 is violation of CoH; no personal attacks allowed.

  • 5 votes
#4.6 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:31 PM EDT
Jake-413451

Neither Liberals nor Progressives would ever, EVER stand for nationalization of private corporations.

Maxine Waters.

Oliver Stone.

Maurice Hinchey.

Some of them openly advocate for it, let alone would stand for it.

As an aside, if they are for nationalizing oil because it is a natural resource then what isn't. Gold, Silver, Iron (and steel), Concrete, Drywall. How about dirt, are farms also eligible for national control sicne they are using natural resources to turn a profit?

It seems the idea is the only thing that would not be a national resource would be intellectual property (which isn't worth anything until made real) and maybe physical labor.

  • 5 votes
#4.7 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:09 PM EDT
vol fan in chatt, tn

well said, Jake...Socrates, it is sad that those posting here on the left can admit that there is even a problem...they are in a state of denial and won't even address the points you so eloquently laid out, which again; is typical.

  • 7 votes
#4.8 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:16 PM EDT
SquawCraw

Socrates: Your article rails against what you perceive as "the lack of action by anyone purportedly on the Left against the Wall Street/Big Bank Consortium."

Just wondering: have you ever heard of Dodd-Frank? The fact that the GOP has done everything in it's power to delay, weaken and ultimately make ineffective that bill does not change the fact that it is a VERY significant piece of legislation and would address many of the issues you raise IF IT WERE ALLOWED TO GO INTO FULL EFFECT.

As for your use of the term "fascism", it's really time for you to go to the dictionary and find out what it really means. Your obviously incomplete understanding of the term makes your article tremendously LESS effective than it could/would have been otherwise. And your attempt to drag "the left" and "progressives" into the same pig sty where the GOP has wallowed for decades is both totally transparent and, frankly, ineffective to the point of being laughable. I give you a solid "B" for the effort, but a D- for the content and substance of your argument.

  • 4 votes
#4.9 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:20 PM EDT
Socrates1

SquawCraw.

I'm really done with excuses. Don't you realize that those excuses provide the very cover the Left needs to continue to enjoy your support? As I have already mentioned, why not the same effort against the banks, as in favor of the insurance companies? I don't think it takes much to figure that out. We have one initiative that benefits the very players I mention in my article and than we have another that benefits the "people" who are purportedly the constituentsof the left. Guess which one got all the press, all the support, and all the arm twisting. Dodd-Frank is a joke, written by two of the biggest players in Congress, once again, rhetoric trumps action in the minds of the Left, coupled with the always effective excuse that the devil (Republicans) made me do it. Let's even assume, just for the moment, that the bill itself meant something..don't you realize that it's always..."if it were allowed to go into effect"? They are playing you. Isn't it about time you took your focus away from increasing the power of government, which you, from your comments, seemingly agree is in bed with Big Everything, and ask why the government never can quite do anything of significance on the "other" front? You could have had 80 Senators and some excuse would have been made, or a different bill would have been introduced, that would have had the same effect as we see today....nothing.

As to your questioning my use of the word fascist? I suggest you consider the point which I am attempting to make...government, big business, big labor, public employees...a powerful combination. If you are a member of one of those groups, than I'm not surprised you wish to concentrate on whether or not my use of the term is entirely correct.

I'm not "attempting to drag "the left" and "progressives" anywhere, I'm asking why they seem to avoid doing what they can with the support of the American People, and prefer to shove through programs that inevitably profit both government and big business?

  • 5 votes
#4.10 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:31 PM EDT
SquawCraw

I’m asking that the reader consider that fact and hold any objections until carefully considering what I am about to suggest. ... I ask that you not react emotionally, at least quite yet, to the term fascist, rather I ask that you examine the facts, and allow me to compare these facts to some frightening similarities prior to, and during, Nazi Germany. ...

Those are YOUR words so obviously you knew that using the term "fascist" was controversial and you did almost nothing to change that fact. You made that bed, now you need to sleep in it. When you don't even understand what one of the words in the title of your piece actually means it makes it pretty hard to take the rest of your words seriously. Just FYI....

And I am not a member of "government, big business, big labor, public employees" or anything of the sort. I'm a private citizen who works for a small mom and pop business and I've been around long enough to know bull crap when I smell it. And I'm smelling it big time from your article. The fact that Dodd-Frank is being hindered by GOP tactics does NOT change the fact that it's a very significant piece of legislation and flies in the very face of what you are saying in your article. Whether it actually "works" or not is of course a big deal but whether it works or not, the fact is that it DOES exist, it was a huge deal when it passed and it was passed at the behest of and by the "left" with basically ZERO help from the "right". This bill, by itself, destroys the heart of your contention (which even you seem to recognize was a stretch to start based on your "disclaimers" quoted above in this reply).

  • 4 votes
#4.11 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:58 PM EDT
multifariousone

Socialism and Fascism

Not only does the author conflate the terms he/she doesn't even understand them individually.

  • 3 votes
#4.12 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:58 AM EDT
multifariousone

I suggest you consider the point which I am attempting to make..

Why is it that you are constantly having to ask people to consider the point you're attempting to make?

Could it be that no one ever gets the point because "you're point" is always complete gobbledygook?

  • 6 votes
#4.13 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:03 AM EDT
Socrates1

MO...Frankly, as I suggested last time, my articles aren't really aimed at people at your level, and, as you mentioned, and I agreed, you seem to find it hard to process the information and concepts that I present. As I don't really see my function as one of hand holding, and you seem to suggest that you don't see yourself as having any responsibility of attempting to understand the subject matter on your own, it would seem that your best course of action would be to avoid my articles.

You've already suggested that you see yourself as providing a certain entertainment value and thus it is in that vein that I read your comments. In other words, when you suggest that your comments essentially have no value and that your motivation in making them does not include the wish to be taken seriously, than I don't think there is much room to complain when I comply with that request.

Having said that, just as I don't always necessarily respond to entertainers in other venues, I see no need to refute, or even respond, to comments which have the stated intent of, well, providing nothing of value.

I make this comment simply as a way of going on record that "no reply" neither means agreement, nor acceptance of any premise and that the primary reason you are not on ignore, other than I have nobody else on ignore, is that I do see one of my responsibiliites as reviewing comments pertaining to my column for violations of the CoH.

Thanks.

  • 3 votes
#4.14 - Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:36 AM EDT
Reply
Castor Bridge

I think that also a direct parallel can be drawn between the Weimar Republic in Germany and America today. Both were just printing paper money to pay their bills. In some ways we are worse off because much of our heavy industry has moved overseas.

For the first time in American history a setting president and vice-president are condoning violence against domestic political opponents. Demonizing your political opponents effectively shuts the door for all discussion and compromise. Just what the nation doesn't need is more polarization. I think their goal must be to Balkinize the United States. Political violence is a very, very slippery slope.

  • 5 votes
Reply#5 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:30 PM EDT
Simba1chief

For the first time in American history a setting president and vice-president are condoning violence against domestic political opponents.

Horsecrap, pure and simple. I defy you to provide any credible evidence of this, and I am not talking about rhetoric purposefully misconstrued, or edited by Faux News here...

  • 7 votes
#5.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:09 PM EDT
vol fan in chatt, tn

there is plenty of evidence... even the president himself said "we are going to punish our enemies and reward our friends..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAhwTQ784IY

how about the stupid:

flag@whitehouse.gov

attachwatch.org

ridiculous.

  • 3 votes
#5.2 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:20 PM EDT
SquawCraw

Vol Fan: since when does punishing your enemies equal "violence"? Yes, physical violence is ONE way to "punish" someone, but so is putting them in "time out", taking away their toys, grounding them, firing them, censuring them, yelling at them, fining them, voting them out of office, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc, NONE of which involve ANY form of "violence" (though I'm not sure what Castor meant at the end of his post when he mentions "political violence"). Come on, Vol, are you really that reactionary? Castor made a stupid and unsupportable claim and you feel the need to defend him?

  • 1 vote
#5.3 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:27 PM EDT
SquawCraw

Castor: what Simba said. And furthermore, what the heck is "political violence" vis a vis physical violence? It almost seems like you realized how ridiculous your initial claim was ("For the first time in American history a setting president and vice-president are condoning violence against domestic political opponents.") and tried to somehow blur the line by throwing the world "political" in front of "violence". Nice try if that's in fact what you were doing, but too late to blur what you clearly said in the first place.

  • 1 vote
#5.4 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:30 PM EDT
multifariousone

Horsecrap, pure and simple. I defy you to provide any credible evidence of this, and I am not talking about rhetoric purposefully misconstrued, or edited by Faux News here...

Ditto. Voted up.

These people are living a twisted imaginary fantasy realm of their own invention. It is void of truth, objectivity or reasoned thinking but replete with outright lies, obfuscation, straw-man arguments, half-truths and logical fallacies.

They throw around terms like "socialism" and "fascism" with no understanding of the meaning of the words or the concepts those words represent in an attempt to sound logical and reasoned where there is no logic or reason.

The U.S. has extremely serious complex problems today that will not be solved by the simplistic thinking of the right. They have no solutions for any of those problems but they are intent on promoting that which will destroy what we need to make us strong (regulation, education, infrastructure, research) while decrying attempts to reign in that which weakens us (over spending on "defense" (offense) being the primary culprit). They's prefer to ride horseback through the wild west rather than building the schools with science labs and bandwidth and the roads, bridges, tunnels and the mass transportation that we so desperately need to compete in the 21st century.

And their constant harping about "fiat currency", the completely discredited views of Ayn Rand, Frederick Hyack and "The Austrian School" is rigidly ideological and shows complete economic illiteracy.

It's just time to stop listening to them altogether. We need to concentrate on forward thinking progressive ideas that create solutions for today's problems.

Ideologically driven Republican/Tea Party rightist's don't have the solutions and are incapable of thinking of any solutions.

  • 2 votes
#5.5 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:38 AM EDT
Reply
Village Idiot-2299796

Fascism Is The Sin Of The ... Well ... Fascistic Right.

If you can't get that right, there is no basis for sharing nationhood with you. It's time to break and go. You can be as fascist as you want. The rest of us will just have to manage without you.

Terms of division:

Obviously, the fascistic right incurred enormous debt through its unconscionable, discretionary wars and flawed taxation policy. THAT ought to belong to the New Confederate States. But however burdensome it would be, I would recommend that it would be worth taking that debt on ourselves for the blessing of being rid of the fascistic right, its seditious bent toward secessionism.

The Confederate States have no meaningful place in a Western style liberal democracy.

  • 8 votes
Reply#6 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:49 PM EDT
Socrates1

Although I'm sure some see you post as expressing some wonderful sentiments and feelings, I'm a little more interested in why the Left did nothing to punish their "enemies" on Wall Street and the offices of the Big Banks which arguably have brought our nation to ruin? Where did all the money go? Why is "their" system so important at the expense of "our" system? How much more Left can I go than to ask the Left to follow their own ideology and show me that they are worthy of support?

Is the Left really about "freedom of the individual" and the "dignity of the common man"?

Does the Left truly represent the interests of the common man over the well connected?

Is the aim of the Left truly to oppose the power and wealth of Big Business and Wall Street?

Where?

  • 3 votes
#6.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:39 PM EDT
Reply
dbmcc

I'm a liberal or progressive and I'm proud of it. As a liberal/progressive I believe in the Constitution and all its Amendments.

My core belief is that:Every American should have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Every American has the right to assemble, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to vote, and freedom to earn a living wage. I believe that every American should be provided an excellant education, and excellant health insurance.

The Constitution provides that the Federal government is to protect the welfare of all of its' citizens. This protection includes but is not limited to providing Safety from foreign enemies, and assuring that the nation is protected from attacks from within. It also includes the obligation to protect all of its citizens from the tyrranny of the few. The Great Depression of the 1930s' was brought on by the collaspe of the Stock Market which was controlled by the elite. The lessons learned resulted in regulations being passed to prohibit banks from investing in wall street, etc. to prevent this from happening again. It also showed that "no man is an island" and that there had to be mechanism put in place to protect all Americans not just the wealthy few. Thus, Social Security was born to protect senior citizens who could no longer protect themselves. There was a recognition that all Americans must help other Americans in need. That we were one country, indivisible, with freedom and justice for all.

These freedoms have been paid for in our many wars. We didn't fight to protect the rich, or the elite, but for our principles of freedom and justice for all.

Thus, in my belief's there is a need for a government big enough to protect all americans not just the lucky few.

The ACA was the best we could get from a Congress controlled by Big Business. It took almost a year to pass. During that same time our Country was facing a Great Recession, again, because of the greed of the rich and wall street. When Obama became President in Jan/2009 our economy had fallen off a cliff and we were losing 700,000 jobs a month. He focused on Health Care and the Stimulus package to stop the carnage. If he had focused on the Bankers and Wall Street at that time it would have made the recession worse!

  • 5 votes
Reply#7 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:13 PM EDT
Socrates1

Without getting into a long discussion regarding the validity of each and every one of your points.....

If your belief is that we

need a government big enough to protect all americans not just a lucky few

How does that work when big business and big labor are in bed with that government?

If he had focused on the Bankers and Wall Street at that time it would have made the recession worse!

And how does this assertion differ from the position that is attacked on the part of "the Right"? Not only do I disagree with it, as do so many others on the right, which is the irony that so many seem unable to understand, but I fail to see where this position fits within the purported ideology of the Left? If the Left supports the Bankers and Wall Street can one really still consider that "the Left"?

I almost want to edit and repost your entire last paragraph, but instead I suggest you reread it and think about what you just posted.

  • 3 votes
#7.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:46 PM EDT
multifariousone

The ACA was the best we could get from a Congress controlled by Big Business. It took almost a year to pass. During that same time our Country was facing a Great Recession, again, because of the greed of the rich and wall street. When Obama became President in Jan/2009 our economy had fallen off a cliff and we were losing 700,000 jobs a month. He focused on Health Care and the Stimulus package to stop the carnage. If he had focused on the Bankers and Wall Street at that time it would have made the recession worse!

Absolutely. Well stated dbmcc.

Isn't interesting how the question of prosecuting the crimes of the previous administration, many members of which cannot leave the country for fear of arrest for war crimes, isn't raised here?

Isn't interesting that the right has no inclination to even examine what got us into this mess?

  • 3 votes
#7.2 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:48 AM EDT
Reply
Village Idiot-2299796

I'm A Democratic Socialist ...

And I believe that

life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

mean precious little apart from free access to the means of production and distribution (hence, work).

  • 2 votes
Reply#8 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:17 PM EDT
Publius 2012

Socrates1, I agree mostly.

I find the left to be politically bankrupt. The right was teetering on the brink as well, Bush was a huge spender, and the moral majority had way too much power.

But I believe that the Tea Party has brought the Republicans out of the darkness.

Nobody had even heard of the liberty wing of the Republican Party until Ron Paul.

Now we will make the cuts. Obama will be out soon, so will the Democrats, and we need to keep the Republican party focused on cutting the size and scope of the Federal government.

For that is the ultimate answer to the graft and the crony capitalism that both parties have embraced; that the government not have the power or the funds to give away like it was their money.

The green stimulus fund political payoffs scandal is just getting fired up. Still more evidence of what Socrates1 wrote.

  • 5 votes
#9 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:52 PM EDT
SquawCraw

It wasn't just WBush (who DOUBLED the National Debt after taking over an economy in surplus and projected to produce a $5.5 TRILLION surplus in the coming ten years. Not to mention that the GOP controlled the House AND the Senate from 1995-2007...) who was a big spender: His daddy added 50% to the National Debt in just four years (a pace that would have doubled the ND in 8 years) and Reagan TRIPLED the ND in his 8 years (even though Congress approved budgets totally nearly $30 Billion LESS than Reagan requested over the course of his 8 years in office). If you think the TEA Party is going to change 30+ years of GOP policy and beliefs then you simply haven't been paying attention...just wait and see...

  • 4 votes
#9.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:37 PM EDT
dbmcc

"Socrates1, I agree mostly.

I find the left to be politically bankrupt. The right was teetering on the brink as well, Bush was a huge spender, and the moral majority had way too much power.

But I believe that the Tea Party has brought the Republicans out of the darkness."

What darkness are you talking about. How is the left bankrupt? The teapotters are the religious right. 80% of religious right identify themselves as teapotters. Further, what makes you think your views are supported by the majority of Americans? There is no proof of that! There is nothing to support your statements. Your simply blowing in the wind.

  • 1 vote
#9.2 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:11 PM EDT
Socrates1

Yes, the Left now attacks the religious right INSTEAD of the "capitalists" at the Big Banks and Wall Street.

See any attempt at misdirection and/or lack of focus here?

Sure, the boogeyman is now the religious right, and quite possibly the homophobic, racist, bigoted, whatever else as opposed to what I always thought was supposed to be the "traditional" enemies of the Left....Big Money...Big Power....and yet off you go on your quest to finally destroy those awful Christians who now, "coincidentally" are the "real" fact of the right, as opposed to.......the Big Banks and Wall Street who are suddenly the darlings of the Left?

Very strange.

And people wonder why I wonder about the Left..

  • 4 votes
#9.3 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:54 PM EDT
multifariousone

Now we will make the cuts. Obama will be out soon, so will the Democrats, and we need to keep the Republican party focused on cutting the size and scope of the Federal government.

While I find the rest of your post to be just ideological drivel, baseless and pointless, I would ask, what do you think the biggest threat to our national security is?

I believe that our biggest threat is not from the barrel of a gun but comes from being out educated and from a lack of investment in the things that we need to compete against our biggest threat, economic domination from China. China's "big government" is out investing us in all areas; education, infrastructure, economic development, energy independence (they are the largest producer of solar panels and wind-driven power generating devices). Their aid to business, large and small is massive.

So if you reject the idea that the great threat we face is from economic domination then simply ignore my questions. If you would like I'd like to hear someone from the right explain to me how they think we counter a threat from a massive government by making our investment in government smaller. Anyone?

  • 2 votes
#9.4 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:55 AM EDT
Publius 2012

The Smaller, leaner government will be far more efficient.

And don't try to feed us that all or nothing bull@!$%# argument we hear too much of.

No one is calling for no regulation, no taxes, or no government.

Just way smaller, smarter, less intrusive into our personal lives, our companies, and business in general.

If you think the Central Planners in Bejing can manipulate the market for very long, you may want to go back and read about the Soviets.

They out invested everyone as well. What happened to them exactly?

  • 2 votes
#9.5 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:42 PM EDT
multifariousone

The Smaller, leaner government will be far more efficient.

That would depend upon what "smaller" and "leaner" means. The Republican/Tea Party "slash and burn" tactics are meant not to make government more efficient. Their aim is to make government ineffective.

But the larger point is that we are getting our clock cleaned by governments who have a long-range vision, industrial/technology/education policies that are fully funded and aggressively pursued.

If you think the Central Planners in Bejing can manipulate the market for very long, you may want to go back and read about the Soviets.

Comparing The Soviet Union to today's China is way off the mark. There is no correlation between the two. There is no "central planning" in Beijing that can be compared to what existed in the Soviet Union.

As well, the Soviets made massive investments in military power, not industrial or technological power. We ultimately outspent them in the military sector and because the Soviets had a disastrously under developed industrial sector, and nothing to fall back on, they eventually bankrupted themselves, something that our short sighted under investment in the education, infrastructure, industrial and technology sectors is now doing to us.

We haven't over spent, we've under invested and squandered our wealth by waging two wars while cutting, rather than increasing taxes.

China is "communist" in name only. The hallmark of Chinese progress today is free-wheeling capitalism with government support for. No such thing existed in The Soviet Union.

With regard to infrastructure, industrial, technological and educational policy, China is making massive investments (as we used to) and then leaving it to the open market (mostly) to utilize those resources.

While there is great issue to be taken with China's social policies it's of great significance that most Chinese support the government's social policies at this time. When you're busy getting rich in a country that has known mass poverty for several centuries putting food on the table and getting rich is much more important to a populace than being told what you can say or read.

I suspect that social unrest will at some point become an issue in China. I also suspect that it's at least one or two decades away and won't occur until most Chinese are middle-class. Right now the Chinese are highly nationalistic and the vast majority supports the government wholeheartedly.

China poses a dire threat to our way of life; not through its potential military might but from its rapidly growing economic and technological might. Only a larger government role in our economy, if we do it quickly and smartly, will stem this threat.

  • 2 votes
#9.6 - Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:47 AM EDT
TiG.

multifariousone

The Republican/Tea Party "slash and burn" tactics are meant not to make government more efficient. Their aim is to make government ineffective.

Government is already ineffective. It is one thing to have political disagreements on the proper role of government but to state that 1/3 or more of the electorate willfully intends to damage our government shows bias and depletes credibility. Not a good way to start.

But the larger point is that we are getting our clock cleaned by governments who have a long-range vision, industrial/technology/education policies that are fully funded and aggressively pursued.

So what should be done? Seriously, China and the US are profoundly different. What would we have to do to produce a workforce that could compete with 12 year old Chinese girls working for pennies?

… something that our short sighted under investment in the education, infrastructure, industrial and technology sectors is now doing to us.

I agree that our government has not made wise use of its revenues.

We haven't over spent, we've under invested and squandered our wealth by waging two wars while cutting, rather than increasing taxes.

You speak of "increasing taxes" as if that were an end in itself. Every tax increase burdens the private sector. That simple fact cannot be ignored. So if we are going to squeeze the private sector we better damn well have a good reason and ensure that those revenues are effectively used. Until government demonstrates fiscal discipline, every tax increase simply provides junkies (politicians) another fix (revenue).

I reject the ‘pay me now - I promise to do better this time’ approach.

China is "communist" in name only. The hallmark of Chinese progress today is free-wheeling capitalism with government support for. No such thing existed in The Soviet Union.

The former USSR was not Communism either – the notion of single-party authoritarian rule with an all-powerful state run by the minority privileged class forcing itself on the majority is indeed the polar opposite of Communism per Marx. The most characteristic aspect of the former USSR – authoritarian control over its people – does indeed exist in China today.

With regard to infrastructure, industrial, technological and educational policy, China is making massive investments (as we used to) and then leaving it to the open market (mostly) to utilize those resources.

They are flooded with cash in a growing economy that is exporting its inexpensive goods throughout the world. If we had the funds we could do plenty too. So what can we do to make that happen in the US?

While there is great issue to be taken with China's social policies ... Only a larger government role in our economy, if we do it quickly and smartly, will stem this threat.

What precisely do you envision here? The caveat of ‘quickly and smartly’ is not bloody likely given the history of the federal government but I am more interested in understanding what you see the federal government doing to produce a robust economy.

  • 3 votes
#9.7 - Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:45 AM EDT
multifariousone

Government is already ineffective.

I disagree. This blanket statement is inaccurate by nature. There are some areas of government that are inefficient and others that are totally effective. Ask anyone who receives Social Security. It's always paid exactly on time. Is the Armed Forces ineffective? Many areas of government are very effective.

So what should be done? Seriously, China and the US are profoundly different. What would we have to do to produce a workforce that could compete with 12 year old Chinese girls working for pennies?

Of course not, those are jobs that we don't want anyway. The problem is not 12 year old factory labor (a gross generalization to be sure as the vast majority of China's 12 year old's are in school learning science, math and English). Where we are getting slaughtered is in higher skilled work like programming, industrial design, etc.

You speak of "increasing taxes" as if that were an end in itself.

That's not at all how I address the subject. Tax structure is only part of the equation. My point there was that Bush started two wars with no way to pay for them. Their cost is a large part of our debt as the money was borrowed to pay for them. The same is true of the unfunded prescription drug benefit that was a giveaway to the pharma sector.

The most characteristic aspect of the former USSR – authoritarian control over its people – does indeed exist in China today.

Not true. There is no "central planning" on the scale of that of the Soviet Union in China and the Soviet Union had no private sector. The private sector in China today is thriving.

I'm no fan of authoritarian social control. My only point is that there is very little resistance to it in China today. The average Chinese is perfectly happy pursuing wealth and could care less what they can or cannot access on Google.

They are flooded with cash in a growing economy that is exporting its inexpensive goods throughout the world.

True. But do we want to go back to producing tee shirts, shoes, toilet brushes and other cheap consumer goods or do we benefit more from having those consumer goods supplied to us at great prices?

Boeing and Caterpillar and many other companies are exporting robustly. Where we've fallen down is by not investing in advanced technologies like high-speed rail and the production facilities that produce the equipment for them.

If we had the funds we could do plenty too. So what can we do to make that happen in the US?

The funds are readily available to us. America is able to borrow at historically low interest rates. We should be borrowing in the short-term, investing in infrastructure, education, technology, basic research and in cost savings medical technology and coverage for our people and paying it off later.

What precisely do you envision here? The caveat of 'quickly and smartly' is not bloody likely given the history of the federal government but I am more interested in understanding what you see the federal government doing to produce a robust economy.

See above. We have no idea who each of us is and are only having this discussion because the government invented the Internet and then provided it for public use. Ditto NASA, the Interstate Highway System, Air Traffic Control and many other technologies and facilities that we use everyday. If government had not built the Hoover Dam population of Arizona and Nevada would be a fraction of what it is today.

  • 2 votes
#9.8 - Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 PM EDT
TiG.

multifariousone

I disagree.

So when asked if the federal government is generally effective or ineffective you will answer ‘effective’. In that case I believe you have set your 'effective' bar too low. But this is simply an opinion question so if you believe that the relatively easy administrative task of delivering checks on time overshadows the blatant mismanagement of the program (just kept running the Ponzi scheme without effective reform) and the depletion of its funds through ‘borrowing’ then you do have the right to that belief.

Of course not, those are jobs that we don't want anyway. …

So, again, what should be done? (I expected that you would recognize the Chinese girls comment as simply literary seasoning.)

My point there was that Bush started two wars with no way to pay for them ...

Add the Obama spending to the Bush spending and we have a geometrically increasing problem. We need to get control of spending before adding more tax revenue to this mess.

The most characteristic aspect of the former USSR – authoritarian control over its people – does indeed exist in China today.

Not true. There is no "central planning" on the scale of that of the Soviet Union in China and the Soviet Union had no private sector. The private sector in China today is thriving.

What precisely is ‘not true’ in what I wrote? I left the quote in place rather than simply repeat it. I did bold ‘authoritarian control’ as a hint.

True. But do we want to go back to producing tee shirts, shoes, toilet brushes and other cheap consumer goods or do we benefit more from having those consumer goods supplied to us at great prices?

My point was that China can do all sorts of cool infrastructure stuff because they have the cash. We do not. We need to find a way to afford these items so I was asking you what you had in mind.

Boeing and Caterpillar and many other companies are exporting robustly. Where we've fallen down is by not investing in advanced technologies like high-speed rail and the production facilities that produce the equipment for them.

Sounds like your solution to our economic problems is to have the government step in as a substitute consumer focused on infrastructure. So back to my question, how is this funded?

America is able to borrow at historically low interest rates… and paying it off later.

We have been there and done that to the tune of $14T+, loss of AAA rating and an incredible burden (weakness) resulting from our indebtedness. The days of borrowing our way out of short term problems is basically over.

_____________

(This is somewhat off topic but I thought I would provide a comment .)

We have no idea who each of us is and are only having this discussion because the government invented the Internet and then provided it for public use.

Just to be clear, the standard we call the world wide web (www) was invented by Tim Berners-Lee of MIT. The Internet (TCP/IP, massive communication infrastructure, high-powered servers, massively available intelligent devices, etc) as we know it was an organic effort that involved some areas in government, some in academia and massive development and execution in the private sector. What has made what you and I are experiencing today is mostly the result of the private sector chasing opportunities. In short, the Internet is not a ‘government initiative’.

  • 3 votes
#9.9 - Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:32 PM EDT
SquawCraw

TiG: pretty sure the initial iteration of the "internet" was a US defense (DARPA) project...

  • 1 vote
#9.10 - Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:02 AM EDT
multifariousone

(just kept running the Ponzi scheme without effective reform) and the depletion of its funds through ‘borrowing’ then you do have the right to that belief.

As someone who paid a lot of money into the system and now receives benefits I find the term "Ponzi Scheme" when applied to the Social Security system laughable and mere propaganda postulated by politicians with an agenda.

So, again, what should be done? (I expected that you would recognize the Chinese girls comment as simply literary seasoning.)

Yes it's absolutely "seasoning" but let me tell you why I find it offensive.

I began my career in earnest in 1971 when I went to South Korea. I began an importing business that bought consumer products at exceptionally low prices. I added lots of value and was able to build a sizable business importing those goods into the U.S.

At that time the South Korean economy was still pretty much on its knees having not yet recovered from the near total devastation of the country caused by the Korean War. The factories that I utilized all utilized young women who sent the money home so that their family could eat and their brothers could go to school. Today South Korea is a thriving middle class economy where every kid goes to school. And the South Koreans are now importing a huge preponderance of their consumer goods from China, a vastly lower wage country than their own. We use to be South Korea's largest trading partner, now China is.

The same process is occurring in China today. The difference is that the population of South Korea is tiny compared to that of China. Millions of Chinese have already made the leap and are getting great educations and are entering the workforce with a base of knowledge far and away greater than the average American kid. Those are the people that threaten us, not the kids who are gluing uppers to lowers in shoe factories. And, by the way, many of our shoe importers are already finding China's production costs to be too high and have moved on to places like Vietnam. I suspect that in the not too distant future, as Vietnamese take higher skilled work (there is a 93% literacy rate in Vietnam) those factories will migrate again, probably this time to Africa.

The point is that those jobs are never coming back to the U.S. as we enjoy the prices of those goods that offshore labor provides.

It's the higher value "thinking" jobs that we are now losing that worries me and those are being done by people with advanced degrees.

Add the Obama spending to the Bush spending and we have a geometrically increasing problem. We need to get control of spending before adding more tax revenue to this mess.

I completely disagree. To begin with there is no comparison between what Bush squandered and what we are spending under President Obama. Our deficit creation under Bush was much bigger that under President Obama especially when you subtract the costs inherent in what President Obama inherited.

The idea that President Obama is ineffective is to me laughable. Changing the direction of the U.S. is like turning a super tanker at sea. A small craft can turn on a small radius, a supertanker takes miles to change direction.

And, as I explained above, we are currently able to borrow at historically low rates and people are willing to loan us more money than we could ever spend. Now is the time to spend on infrastructure, education and basic research like we have always done. We need to create the next Internet or NASA or both or more. That, and only that, will make us a great nation again.

What precisely is ‘not true’ in what I wrote? I left the quote in place rather than simply repeat it. I did bold ‘authoritarian control’ as a hint.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you wrote.

My point was that China can do all sorts of cool infrastructure stuff because they have the cash. We do not. We need to find a way to afford these items so I was asking you what you had in mind.

If we had six percent unemployment we'd have no deficit. If we had five percent we'd be producing a surplus. I think I've answered this question above. Simply, borrow now and pay it back later.

Sounds like your solution to our economic problems is to have the government step in as a substitute consumer focused on infrastructure. So back to my question, how is this funded?

No, not as a substitute consumer, a catalyst for production. The American people are the consumer who utilizes our infrastructure.

Elizabeth Warren says it absolutely correctly (quoted from Business Insider):

No one in this country has gotten rich on his or her own. They've gotten rich thanks to the help of others (employees, customers) and the "social contract," which provides the legal, civil, and societal environment in which capitalism functions.

How is that funded? See above.

We have been there and done that to the tune of $14T+, loss of AAA rating and an incredible burden (weakness) resulting from our indebtedness. The days of borrowing our way out of short term problems is basically over.

The loss of our AAA rating is purely political and laughable on its face.

and an incredible burden (weakness) resulting from our indebtedness.

What weakness? What burden are any of us feeling?

The days of borrowing our way out of short term problems is basically over.

They certainly are not. We are borrowing every day and as I've said above we need to borrow even more in the short-term.

There's no question that we have long-term structural problems that need to be addressed. But putting millions of American's back to work will address a major part of the problem. We need to do that first.

Just to be clear, the standard we call the world wide web (www) was invented by Tim Berners-Lee of MIT.

Actually Professor Berners-Lee, while now at MIT, invented www while at CERN in Switzerland.

The Internet (TCP/IP, massive communication infrastructure, high-powered servers, massively available intelligent devices, etc) as we know it was an organic effort that involved some areas in government, some in academia and massive development and execution in the private sector. What has made what you and I are experiencing today is mostly the result of the private sector chasing opportunities. In short, the Internet is not a ‘government initiative’.

Sorry, you are not correct.

A group of researchers and scientists at the newly formed Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) invented the Internet in the United States during the late 1950s to 70s after the former Soviet Union launched Sputnik. Realizing that the United States had suffered a great technological blow by allowing the USSR to hold the first successful satellite launch, ARPA set out to create a brand new technologyunlike anything that had ever been done before and the Internet was the result of their hard work.

It is now known as DARPA: http://www.darpa.mil/

The Internet exists because of U.S. government research and development. Once developed it was let free into the market for all of us to enjoy and build a new economy on. An economy that employees millions today.

  • 1 vote
#9.11 - Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:52 AM EDT
TiG.

multifariousone

As someone who paid a lot of money into the system and now receives benefits I find the term "Ponzi Scheme" when applied to the Social Security system laughable and mere propaganda postulated by politicians with an agenda.

Then look at the big picture (you are not at the bottom of the Ponzi scheme – watch what happens to the next generation). BTW, my point was that social security is an example of government mismanagement – running the same basic unsustainable structure and with its funds ‘borrowed’ for other purposes. Now if you wish to believe that social security is an example of effective government management that is of course your right but it tells me just how low you place the bar.

Yes it's absolutely "seasoning" but let me tell you why I find it offensive.

Offensive? Chinese child labor abuse is well known – there is no sense in being offended by a fact.

The point is that those jobs are never coming back to the U.S. as we enjoy the prices of those goods that offshore labor provides.

No those jobs are not returning. Since I routinely make the same point I am pretty sure I did not suggest otherwise to you.

It's the higher value "thinking" jobs that we are now losing that worries me and those are being done by people with advanced degrees.

Yes our education system is atrophying. Maybe we should start a Department of Education /sarc. The competition for ‘thinking’ jobs is indeed a key concern. India is another major competitor in that arena.

I completely disagree...

First, Congress is in charge of spending; the POTUS recommends and vetoes. Blame (and praise, if any) for spending goes to the combination of the E+L branches with primary focus on the Legislative branch. However, my point was not to get into the boring debate of Bush v Obama, etc. but that “We need to get control of spending before adding more tax revenue to this mess.”

The idea that President Obama is ineffective is to me laughable. Changing the direction of the U.S. is like turning a super tanker at sea. A small craft can turn on a small radius, a supertanker takes miles to change direction.

Multifariousone, with all respect that is a lame excuse. I agree that a POTUS has quite limited power. Obama (and apparently his supporters) thought he was going to ride into DC and truly effect change we can believe in. Well he found out that ‘just words; just speeches’ is really quite easy compared to the actions required to effect what is promised.

What I have seen is massive spending with little results compared to what Obama promised. The administration has used all sorts of techniques to sidestep and deflect blame for precious few true results. I know some like you will support Obama no matter what … what can I say … but the results are now speaking and they overpower the old words. Instead of blowing his political capital on the hobbled crap health care legislation he should have focused on the critical issue of the economy and that means jobs. Bring in the private sector leaders, listen to them and start taking actions such as eliminating ineffective, unnecessary regulation (while preserving and introducing needed regulation) and making targeted ‘investment’ in areas that truly would open up commerce. At the very least establish a clear policy so that lenders, businesses and consumers have a clue (some certainty) as to what actions the government might take.

We do not, unfortunately, have the historic opportunity Eisenhower had with the interstate highway system but I have no doubt there are numerous inhibitors to commerce that could be addressed. My point is that job#1 was (and still is) jobs and that is what Obama should have focused on from day one. Do what can be done and then focus on issues such as genuine, practical, phased, thoughtful reform of our health care system to stop the rising costs while preserving quality and freedom of choice.

Now is the time to spend on infrastructure, education and basic research like we have always done. We need to create the next Internet or NASA or both or more. That, and only that, will make us a great nation again.

The only thing that will solve our problems is a healthy domestic economy. It has to be a genuine economy – not a fake economy propped up by government playing the surrogate consumer.

I would very much love to see a surplus of cash that could be used to encourage new markets. But we do not have it and more borrowing is beyond irresponsible. Government programs will indeed create jobs but they are temporary – they exist as long as the government props up the work by spending tax revenues from our grandchildren’s generation. The genuine economy comes from the private sector recognizing and pursuing opportunities. Now if the government has something it can do to enable that (such as breaking down barriers inhibiting the private sector) that is great. Also, per your rail example, if a large national high speed rail system was part of an overall economic plan in which the private sector has provided convincing insight into how it will a) be paid for and b) net improve our economy in the short and longer term then that would be something to pursue. I would pursue it with government oversight but private sector execution. (I would also have the private sector direct beneficiaries provide/guarantee much of the funding – skin in the game and all that.) Right now, Obama has a ‘if we build it they will come’ thing going and that is (from a business perspective) naïve. One must go beyond ‘gee that sounds cool’ or ‘why does China get to do it and we do not?’ to ‘this is what it will cost and this is what we confidently believe it will accomplish’.

Simply, borrow now and pay it back later.

That is not a convincing argument. In addition, the ‘pay it back’ part contradicts history.

No, not as a substitute consumer, a catalyst for production. The American people are the consumer who utilizes our infrastructure.

Like I said, we need to have a clear, thoughtful business plan. If a responsible entity could put forth such a plan for public investment as a catalyst for production we would be having a different discussion. Right now this is nothing but a pipe dream.

If such a plan would work the government would, via public fund investment, serve as a surrogate consumer by enabling projects (creating demand) which provide jobs. The dynamics of a catalyst, properly executed, would shift the consumer role back to the international consumer in the medium term. If that shift is not made we just wasted tons of money and time to simply delay the inevitable.

No one in this country has gotten rich on his or her own. They've gotten rich thanks to the help of others (employees, customers) and the "social contract," which provides the legal, civil, and societal environment in which capitalism functions.

No question about that. Now, let’s see the actual plan on what we can do to truly effect the catalyst. I am all for firing up the economic engine I simply have no patience for a bunch of politicians throwing together yet another piece of legislation costing $T with hopes that the results will somehow match the nice sounding title they dream up.

The loss of our AAA rating is purely political and laughable on its face.

It reflects where we are. That political move would have been impossible if we were on solid ground. Our national debt = our GDP. Last time that happened was WWII but back then the US had the international advantage of an established, intact manufacturing base which propelled us while the rest of the world rebuilt its infrastructure. Where is our massive advantage in 2011?

What weakness? What burden are any of us feeling?

Are you familiar with the phrase ‘negotiate from a position of strength’

  • 3 votes
#9.12 - Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:47 PM EDT
TiG.

SquawCraw

TiG: pretty sure the initial iteration of the "internet" was a US defense (DARPA) project...

Indeed it was. DARPA (well at least Cerf and Kahn) pioneered TCP/IP which is the communication protocol of the Internet. ‘Initial iteration’ is a good qualification.

_______________

multifariousone

TiG: Just to be clear, the standard we call the world wide web (www) was invented by Tim Berners-Lee of MIT.

Actually Professor Berners-Lee, while now at MIT, invented www while at CERN in Switzerland.

(’of MIT’). My point was to observe that what we call the Internet was an effort involving quite a few entities. CERN (via Berners-Lee) was one of the players and was quite distinct from DARPA. When we play history we see that quite a few public and private sector entities were involved in the development of the Internet as we know it. See below …

TiG: The Internet (TCP/IP, massive communication infrastructure, high-powered servers, massively available intelligent devices, etc) as we know it was an organic effort that involved some areas in government, some in academia and massive development and execution in the private sector. What has made what you and I are experiencing today is mostly the result of the private sector chasing opportunities. In short, the Internet is not a ‘government initiative’.

Sorry, you are not correct.

Again, note what I said. Bold face again showing the hint. I guess I will have to go further. DARPA pioneered TCP/IP. TCP/IP is the protocol standard that lies as the heart of what we call the Internet. TCP/IP is, however, not the same as the Internet as we know it. The Internet as we know it is what I enumerated in the quote. Yes TCP/IP is still there but it is still just the protocol for communication (passing messages around in addressable packets). (TCP/IP was exceptionally well done; it is nevertheless only part of what is required.)

What we all experience as ‘the Internet’ goes well beyond TCP/IP. The Internet needs communication standards (TCP/IP) but it also needs communication bandwidth (fiber-optic backbones, satellite relays, high-speed routers, etc.), as well as the distribution to the client (cable, DSL, etc.). Add to this the need for massive server capabilities and the technologies required to support high volume concurrent transactions. Without HTTP, URLs we would have a very technical (unfriendly) experience that would appeal only to techies. Now without HTML (and later CSS, Javascript, PHP, etc.) we would all be communicating with files and text transmissions.

Like I said, the Internet as we know it was developed organically – an effort that "involved some areas in government, some in academia and massive development and execution in the private sector". To make this clearer, imagine that the private sector did nothing whatsoever to develop the Internet. What would the Internet be without the private sector? Plenty of fine standards and other research work which might have been the seed for technological development have died in ‘the lab’ lacking the resources to turn a fine idea into something real.

In short, what we commonly call ‘the Internet’ was not something developed by the federal government and then simply given to us all to enjoy (as some would like to portray it). A research area within the federal government played an important role but in no way should be given credit for the development of the Internet as we know it.

Back to the original point, 'the Internet' itself cannot be claimed an example of government effectiveness.

  • 2 votes
#9.13 - Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:55 PM EDT
multifariousone

Then look at the big picture (you are not at the bottom of the Ponzi scheme – watch what happens to the next generation).

As long as the system exists, as long as the US exists and as long as people work and pay into the system Social Security will exist. It's not at all a "Ponzi Scheme". Ponzi Scheme is a term being used to scare people who want to privatize the system for their own narrow greedy benefit.

Offensive? Chinese child labor abuse is well known

Child labor abuse existed in this country too until less than 100 years ago or so. Progressive laws and economic growth brought it to an end. It will in China too eventually.

What I have seen is massive spending with little results compared to what Obama promised. The administration has used all sorts of techniques to sidestep and deflect blame for precious few true results. I know some like you will support Obama no matter what … what can I say … but the results are now speaking and they overpower the old words. Instead of blowing his political capital on the hobbled crap health care legislation he should have focused on the critical issue of the economy and that means jobs. Bring in the private sector leaders, listen to them and start taking actions such as eliminating ineffective, unnecessary regulation (while preserving and introducing needed regulation) and making targeted ‘investment’ in areas that truly would open up commerce. At the very least establish a clear policy so that lenders, businesses and consumers have a clue (some certainty) as to what actions the government might take.

Most economists agree that the stimulus kept us out of depression but didn't go far enough. Most are in complete accord that we need more stimulus very quickly:

How to Prevent a Depression - Nouriel Roubini

Instead of blowing his political capital on the hobbled crap health care legislation he should have focused on the critical issue of the economy and that means jobs.

He did. He got the stimulus passed first and then moved onto the next critical issue, health care, a necessity for every American.

The health care sector is one of our largest (and fastest growing) employers and as a system is totally broken costing us much more than better care in other countries costs. Our costs are far higher, and our outcomes far worse, than in any other major industrialized nation.

As an economic matter the American health care system is a huge drain on our economy because of those higher costs and worse outcomes.

As a human issue, it's unacceptable for 50 million American's to have an essential service kept from them. I know. I lost my health insurance when the company went out of business because of the recession in 2009. I have a prior existing condition that got me turned down from all of the health care insurers that I could apply to. I have health insurance today only because of the ACA.

For those reasons I have no problem with President Obama's priorities here. Democrats have been trying to reform the health insurance system for decades. He finally had the opportunity to do it and he took it. I applaud him for it.

Bring in the private sector leaders, listen to them and start taking actions such as eliminating ineffective, unnecessary regulation (while preserving and introducing needed regulation) and making targeted ‘investment’ in areas that truly would open up commerce.

President Obama has.

GE's Immelt and other CEOs on White House panel make job-creation recommendations to Obama

Based on one of the panels recommendations President Obama has ordered every agency of government to review every regulation.

Fareed Zakaria had a very interesting special on this subject on Sunday night on CNN. Here's a link to it: http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/16/watch-the-gps-special-getting-back-to-work/

Are you familiar with the phrase ‘negotiate from a position of strength’

We are still by far the strongest, both economically and militarily, nation on the planet - by far. The Chinese need us way more than we need them. Without our markets their economy collapses.

  • 1 vote
#9.14 - Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:55 PM EDT
multifariousone

Back to the original point, 'the Internet' itself cannot be claimed an example of government effectiveness.

Without the platform that DARPA developed we'd not be here today. They developed it and the rest was built upon what they gave us.

  • 1 vote
#9.15 - Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:58 PM EDT
Publius 2012

The government does very little effectively.

It was why the founders specifically enumerated the powers.

Social Security is a Ponzi scheme when you realize that the new investors are paying for the old ones.

If it was run like it is now privately, we'd jail the management.

That said, it can be fixed. But whatever is done, the money has to go into individual accounts that the congress has no control over, it is their dipping into it over the years that has put it in virtual insolvency.

The Chilean system would work well.

  • 2 votes
#9.16 - Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:25 PM EDT
TiG.

multifariousone

As long as the system exists, as long as the US exists and as long as people work and pay into the system Social Security will exist.

It is not sustainable in its current form. Without change, people will work and pay into it and it will NOT deliver on its promises. You may be one of the very few people who deny the unsustainability of the social security system in its current form.

Per the GAO, pg 26:

In 2017, Social Security is projected to pay out more cash in benefits than it receives in revenues.

Technically, however, you are correct that the system will exist as long as people work and pay into. Given enough money almost any system can be kept alive. The question is without reform just how much people will have to pay. The next question is if they will ever see a dime of benefit when they retire. This is not an example of government effectiveness.

It's not at all a "Ponzi Scheme". Ponzi Scheme is a term being used to scare people who want to privatize the system for their own narrow greedy benefit.

But it is. 'Ponzi scheme' is a term used to describe a system in which the early participants gain benefit at the expense of those arriving later. As such, it is quite an apt description of the social security system as it exists today.

From SEC website:

What is a Ponzi scheme?

A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors. Ponzi scheme organizers often solicit new investors by promising to invest funds in opportunities claimed to generate high returns with little or no risk. In many Ponzi schemes, the fraudsters focus on attracting new money to make promised payments to earlier-stage investors and to use for personal expenses, instead of engaging in any legitimate investment activity.

Why do Ponzi schemes collapse?

With little or no legitimate earnings, the schemes require a consistent flow of money from new investors to continue. Ponzi schemes tend to collapse when it becomes difficult to recruit new investors or when a large number of investors ask to cash out.

That is about right.

Child labor abuse existed in this country too until less than 100 years ago or so. Progressive laws and economic growth brought it to an end. It will in China too eventually.

I will take that as tacit acknowledgement that child labor abuse in China is well known and that the US would never pursue such methods to attempt to compete at that level. So we agree on this for all the good it does.

Most economists agree that the stimulus kept us out of depression but didn't go far enough. Most are in complete accord that we need more stimulus very quickly:

As always, economists contradict each other. This is not science. Nevertheless it is Sep, 2011 and what can we say about the state of our economy? That is what matters when evaluating effectiveness.

He did. He got the stimulus passed first and then moved onto the next critical issue, health care, a necessity for every American.

Both were quickly assembled by politicians. Neither has demonstrated anything close to being worth the cost. Obama and Biden both are making excuses (‘not as shovel ready as we thought’), unemployment is 9.1%, banks are still not lending, private sector is still not investing, consumers are still not spending. For the amount of money that has been spent I am sorry I do indeed expect results and reject the arguments of ‘it would have been much worse’ (as should everyone). I have already commented extensively on health care so I will avoid the repetition.

President Obama has [brought in business leaders].

I am not talking about token advisers such as Immelt whose actions are questionable at the very least but rather an ongoing serious initiative with a cross section of business leaders in the nation. This is not for political show but rather serious work. No way has Obama come even close to engaging the private sector in this manner.

Fareed Zakaria had a very interesting special on this subject on Sunday night on CNN.

Case in point per my prior comment. Immelt’s description of what is going to happen sounds good. Hopefully they have a good cross section of the private sector (I doubt it but …). But here is what kills me – this is all talk and it is as of Sep 16, 2011. How about Feb of 2009 or at least sometime in 2009?! Did someone somehow miss the sense of urgency here or is this another experiment given they realize now that their expectations of ARRA have not materialized (at all)?

We are still by far the strongest, both economically and militarily, nation on the planet - by far. The Chinese need us way more than we need them. Without our markets their economy collapses.

Our strength wanes as our national debt and unemployment rises. If you believe the US is in a strong economic situation relative to China then you must be overlooking China’s growing economy flooded with cash and our strapped economy, high unemployment and highly burdensome national debt coupled with no real plan for how we are going to compete in the global economy. That strikes me as a position of weakness and I for one am not the least bit comfortable.

  • 3 votes
#9.17 - Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:03 AM EDT
TiG.

multifariousone

Without the platform that DARPA developed we'd not be here today. They developed it and the rest was built upon what they gave us.

Yes this seed was a very important contribution as I have noted since my first post on this. However ...

... we'd not be here today

Believe me, if TCP/IP had not been invented another computer scientist and/or team would have produced a general standard for communication with similar functional properties. While I respect TCP/IP as great work, it solved a very well known problem - enabling general purpose, efficient, cooperative communication among disparate (heterogeneous) addressable machines (and sub-networks). Frankly this pales in comparison to hard science (dealing with properties of real materials and not just data and logic) such as the development of the silicon chip and the integrated circuit.

  • 3 votes
#9.18 - Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:22 AM EDT
multifariousone

It is not sustainable in its current form. Without change, people will work and pay into it and it will NOT deliver on its promises.

That's a different issue than whether or not it's a Ponzi Scheme. Of course it needs adjustment. So does everything in business and in life.

Both were quickly assembled by politicians. Neither has demonstrated anything close to being worth the cost.

Do you have citations that back up this statement?

There's plenty of evidence that the stimulus worked given its size and scope which many economists warned at the time was inadequate.

To be sure, the ACA has worked for me, millions of kids up to age 26 and anyone with a prior existing condition. It will help millions more when it's fully functional by 2014(?).

It will lower overall health care costs according to the CBO and improve the lives of millions. I would only agree that it didn't go far enough. We require a single payer system, period.

I am not talking about token advisers such as Immelt whose actions are questionable at the very least but rather an ongoing serious initiative with a cross section of business leaders in the nation. This is not for political show but rather serious work. No way has Obama come even close to engaging the private sector in this manner.

Fareed Zakaria had a very interesting special on this subject on Sunday night on CNN.

Case in point per my prior comment. Immelt’s description of what is going to happen sounds good. Hopefully they have a good cross section of the private sector (I doubt it but …). But here is what kills me – this is all talk and it is as of Sep 16, 2011. How about Feb of 2009 or at least sometime in 2009?! Did someone somehow miss the sense of urgency here or is this another experiment given they realize now that their expectations of ARRA have not materialized (at all)?

We are still by far the strongest, both economically and militarily, nation on the planet - by far. The Chinese need us way more than we need them. Without our markets their economy collapses.

Our strength wanes as our national debt and unemployment rises. If you believe the US is in a strong economic situation relative to China then you must be overlooking China’s growing economy flooded with cash and our strapped economy, high unemployment and highly burdensome national debt coupled with no real plan for how we are going to compete in the global economy. That strikes me as a position of weakness and I for one am not the least bit comfortable.

Advisers are tokens. Initiatives are inadequate.....you're on a rant. President Obama could cure cancer and you'd deny the achievement.

Believe me, if TCP/IP had not been invented another computer scientist and/or team would have produced a general standard for communication with similar functional properties. While I respect TCP/IP as great work, it solved a very well known problem - enabling general purpose, efficient, cooperative communication among disparate (heterogeneous) addressable machines (and sub-networks). Frankly this pales in comparison to hard science (dealing with properties of real materials and not just data and logic) such as the development of the silicon chip and the integrated circuit.

The bottom line is that DARPA did what DARPA did. As well, government funding and assistance has played a crucial role in the development of the integrated circuit and the silicon chip. If it hadn't been for NASA computers would still be taking up entire rooms.

You refuse to acknowledge that government can accomplish anything constructive. Live with that belief if you choose but I choose to no longer engage in an endless, senseless debate.

  • 1 vote
#9.19 - Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:18 AM EDT
TiG.

multifariousone

That's a different issue than whether or not it's a Ponzi Scheme.

That is because the quote you included was my response to the statement I quoted from you: “As long as the system exists, as long as the US exists and as long as people work and pay into the system Social Security will exist.”.

Of course it needs adjustment. So does everything in business and in life.

My point is that it has not been fundamentally adjusted and it is 75 years old and in serious trouble – it continues to labor with the structure of a Ponzi scheme and its funds remain borrowed instead of under active repayment.

Do you have citations that back up this statement?

My statement reflects my analysis of what I have and am observing. Both pieces of legislation were quickly assembled and in the case of health care it was the subject of considerable political shenanigans. I have in prior posts already presented my argument on results; or lack thereof. I suspect if I did take the effort to provide corroborating analysis (links) that it would not really persuade those who - in spite of what we can observe - still believe that the legislation in question represents effective government.

There's plenty of evidence that the stimulus worked given its size and scope which many economists warned at the time was inadequate.

No doubt. Plenty of people write analysis both pro and con for almost any major topic. Nevertheless, it is not June of 2009 but rather September of 2011. I cannot imagine what you are seeing, but the current conditions do not suggest to me that our economy is going anywhere.

To be sure, the ACA has worked for me, millions of kids up to age 26 and anyone with a prior existing condition. It will help millions more when it's fully functional by 2014(?).

There are parts of the legislation that I am in favor of. Eliminating denials based upon pre-conditions is something that we need (albeit quite complicated to pull off given it logically requires a mandate to carry insurance). Carrying older children on the parent’s plan is indeed good. What I am talking about is the legislation in aggregate. I have described the approach I seek. The end result would no doubt include good provisions in the current bill but implement them under a structure that is well conceived financially and logistically, includes infrastructure for sharing resources and liability, be federalist in nature, be regulated by federal and state government and be executed in the private sector. I agree we need health care reform but disagree that the crap forced upon us deserves the label.

Advisers are tokens. Initiatives are inadequate.....you're on a rant. President Obama could cure cancer and you'd deny the achievement.

That is my position supported by a thoughtful argument. We disagree. I could respond in kind and suggest that you are suffering from wishful thinking but I do not see how personal analysis like that would help this discussion.

You refuse to acknowledge that government can accomplish anything constructive. Live with that belief if you choose but I choose to no longer engage in an endless, senseless debate.

I am countering your claims of government effectiveness. I have given credit at the appropriate level while rebutting claims that read as though the Internet we experience today was handed to us by the federal government. That is nowhere close to reality and I responded accordingly.

[ I did not even bother arguing that technical accomplishments of projects within the government is not even what I meant by government effectiveness anyway since the context was that of large government initiatives such as social security, not funded research. ]

If it hadn't been for NASA computers would still be taking up entire rooms.

:-) Well you do not want to discuss this anymore so I will let that latest claim ride since I would simply break it down and recognize credit at the appropriate level for all participants as I did with the Internet. You will probably interpret my prior statement to imply I believe NASA was a waste of money; you would be quite wrong. I have been disagreeing on specific points; you are generalizing my comments into an all or nothing scenario. That, multifariousone, is both extreme and incorrect.

    #9.20 - Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:37 AM EDT
    multifariousone

    No doubt. Plenty of people write analysis both pro and con for almost any major topic. Nevertheless, it is not June of 2009 but rather September of 2011. I cannot imagine what you are seeing, but the current conditions do not suggest to me that our economy is going anywhere.

    The issue is where the economy might have been without it.

    If you really want to look at crap legislation let's talk about TARP legislation that Bush/Paulson gave us.

    The end result would no doubt include good provisions in the current bill but implement them under a structure that is well conceived financially and logistically, includes infrastructure for sharing resources and liability, be federalist in nature, be regulated by federal and state government and be executed in the private sector. I agree we need health care reform but disagree that the crap forced upon us deserves the label.

    It's the history of most legislation that it starts somewhere and gets refined and made better over time. I have no doubt that this will be the case with the ACA.

    I am countering your claims of government effectiveness. I have given credit at the appropriate level while rebutting claims that read as though the Internet we experience today was handed to us by the federal government. That isnowhere close to reality and I responded accordingly.

    I never suggested that the way it is today is the way the government handed it to us. The government did the basics and then let it go. Just what government should be doing.

    • 1 vote
    #9.21 - Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:28 PM EDT
    TiG.

    multifariousone

    Rather than gratuitously fan the embers I am going to just leave your post @9.21 as 'the last word'. See you around. :-)

      #9.22 - Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:35 PM EDT
      multifariousone

      Rather than gratuitously fan the embers I am going to just leave your post @9.21 as 'the last word'. See you around. :-)

      See ya. :-)

      • 1 vote
      #9.23 - Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:47 PM EDT
      Reply
      aqua surf-1123675

      Today's Left is more Communist than Fascist. Calling them Fascist just makes them SUPER mad, LOL!!

      • 5 votes
      Reply#10 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:24 PM EDT
      Village Idiot-2299796

      Actually, Aqua ...

      It displays the chicaneries of the fascistic right of projecting their sins and punishing them vicariously in others.

      • 5 votes
      #10.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:03 PM EDT
      dbmcc

      The progressives have nothing in common with communism. We support Democracy and capitalism but believe our elected officials should represent all of us not just rich corporations and ubber rich people.

      • 3 votes
      #10.2 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:16 PM EDT
      Socrates1

      Than you should agree with the tone of my article, and be asking the very same questions.

      • 1 vote
      #10.3 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:55 PM EDT
      multifariousone

      Today's Left is more Communist than Fascist. Calling them Fascist just makes them SUPER mad, LOL!!

      Communist? How so? Can you explain communism and clarify for us where you see any "communism" in our country?

      • 3 votes
      #10.4 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:57 AM EDT
      Reply
      Freewill

      Socrates

      I think you will find F.A. Hayek's The Road to Serfdom a very interesting read, if you have not already read it. I think it provides a very frank assessment of socialism and the rise of German Nazism by a political philosopher and economist who was there and witnessed it first hand.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#11 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:24 PM EDT
      Socrates1

      Thanks, the title sounds familiar, but I must admit I have never read it.

      Not looking for strokes, but am I anywhere close?

      • 4 votes
      #11.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:56 PM EDT
      TiG.

      Socrates

      Hayek was quite critical of centralized planning - he critiqued socialism as he saw it practiced in the Soviet Union. (He was not a fan.) Hayek was very much an anti-Statist.

      BTW, very interesting point you raise in your article. Why indeed has the D party (or the left if you wish) let the aristocracy just keep on rolling? Seems just a tad hypocritical.

      Oh of course I know that it does not matter the party affiliation - the aristocracy influences politicians regardless of party.

      • 4 votes
      #11.2 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:50 AM EDT
      Socrates1

      Thanks for stopping...

      As you may know, but others don't, I seem to have more questions than answers....

      Also, apparently I haven't been keeping up, but Pamela Drew has an article on a protest......on Wall Street tomorrow....just can't help being topical I guess...

      • 1 vote
      #11.3 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:40 AM EDT
      Freewill

      Socrates

      ...but am I anywhere close?

      The fourth paragraph of your article comes very close to Hayek's observations, but you really need to read the book to get the full flavor of Hayek's concerns. From the introduction:

      The supreme tragedy is still not seen that in Germany it was largely people of good will, men who were admired and held up as models in the democratic countries, who prepared the way for, if they did not actually create, the forces which now stand for everything they detest. Few are ready to recognize that the rise of fascism and nazism was not a reaction against the socialist trends of the preceding period but a necessary outcome of those tendencies.

      While democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.

      • 5 votes
      #11.4 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:44 AM EDT
      multifariousone

      Thanks, the title sounds familiar, but I must admit I have never read it.

      That doesn't surprise me and it also doesn't surprise me that you are a proponent of ideas that you don't understand.

      • 3 votes
      #11.5 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:58 AM EDT
      multifariousone

      BTW, very interesting point you raise in your article. Why indeed has the D party (or the left if you wish) let the aristocracy just keep on rolling? Seems just a tad hypocritical.

      I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

      First of all have you heard of Dodd Frank? That's the bank re-regulation bill that the right is trying to destroy.

      And, by the way, I thought you people were proponents of free markets and all. So if you are why do you find it "hypocritical" that banks have been left to operate in a free market?

      Do you have any understanding of how global finance works in today's world? Do you remember the consequences of letting Lehman Brothers collapse? Are you aware of what ramifications the European debt crisis will have on us and what cutting these size of the large American banks would do in the face of this crisis?

      It doesn't sound like it to me......

      • 3 votes
      #11.6 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:03 AM EDT
      Freewill

      multifariousone at #11.5 and #11.6

      That doesn't surprise me and it also doesn't surprise me that you are a proponent of ideas that you don't understand.

      Why the personal attacks and insults? I thought the purpose of Newsvine was to "Get Smarter Here". So given your apparent wisdom, coming from seemingly multiple conflicting directions in #11.6, how would you feel about teaching us? What is it that YOU think the Dodd-Frank bill will do, and were you aware that it was signed into law in July of 2010? Just curious because your wording was such that perhaps you might think the bill hadn't passed yet. Interesting summary of the Dodd-Frank one year later HERE.

      Do you have any understanding of how global finance works in today's world?

      That is an extremely broad subject, so what is it specifically about global finance that you feel we don't understand? Since you brought it up, please be sure to explain what YOUR position is rather than just claiming that we don't understand it.

      Do you remember the consequences of letting Lehman Brothers collapse?

      Yes, I do. But please, enlighten me with your take on it that I might learn. So is it your opinion that we should not have let them collapse, and at who's expense?

      Are you aware of what ramifications the European debt crisis will have on us and what cutting these size of the large American banks would do in the face of this crisis?

      I'm unclear as to where you are headed with this question. You appear to be heading up two opposing positions here. Who is talking about cutting the the size of large American banks? European central banks, much like our Federal Reserve, and central planning type fiscal policy have been a big part of the bubbles, busts, and debt crisis for nearly a century, and rather than address that issue, the Dodd-Frank Act in many ways increases the power/reach of the Federal Reserve.

      But have at it multifariousone....teach me.

      • 5 votes
      #11.7 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:41 PM EDT
      SquawCraw

      Freewill: Multi's first comment you highlight was totally warranted given the tenor and tone of Socrates initial post AND his numerous follow ups. He was obviously talking about something that he doesn't fully understand (which he has admitted) and therefore should be prepared to be called out on it.

      • 1 vote
      #11.8 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:37 PM EDT
      TiG.

      multifariousone

      Did I strike a nerve? Okay, lets see if we can make some progress.

      First of all have you heard of Dodd Frank? That's the bank re-regulation bill that the right is trying to destroy.

      Politically Congress had to act in response to our financial melt-down. The degree to which this legislation helps or hurts remains to be seen as it rolls out over time. Regulations are not implicitly good. The trick is to provide effective regulation and avoid the natural tendency of government to red-tape entities to death for unjustified returns. I suspect you believe this act will have brilliant results; I will watch and comment as results are reported.

      That said, surprisingly you did not accurately read my mind. When I talked about aristocracy I was referring to the relationship between the true power brokers (individuals who have no need to receive earned income) and our politicians and government officials. The hypocrisy comes from those who speak as though they are out to protect the American people as they continue to cater to that which secures power and opportunity. Cronyism, lobbyist relationships, etc. are long-standing problems involving both parties and I do not expect to see any resolution in my lifetime. That is, the hypocrisy will continue.

      Now to bring this to a single point: do you expect Goldman-Sachs will reduce its campaign contributions to the D party as a result of Dodd-Frank?

      And, by the way, I thought you people were proponents of free markets and all. So if you are why do you find it "hypocritical" that banks have been left to operate in a free market?

      Libertarians (I suspect you would consider them to your right) tend towards laissez-faire but you will find a number of us on the right who very much recognize the need for necessary and sufficientregulation. The uncontrolled growth of oligopolistic clusters of power is unhealthy to our socio-economic/political system. But that does not mean we should simply accept any and all regulation as ‘good’. That seems to be a key problem in these debates. People tend to attach extreme positions to their opposition (e.g. ‘the right wants no regulations’) when in reality the position is almost always not extreme – to have effective regulation and avoid disruptive, burdensome ineffective regulation.

      You may need an example of ineffective regulation. One of my favorite examples is the EPA forcing absurd levels of particle care when disturbing drywall in pre-1978 buildings (e.g. replacing a window) while allowing the wholesale demolition of same (e.g. heavy equipment razing a structure) without any environmental precautions. Regulations like this compromise the private sector construction business to solve a tiny problem while leaving the major problem unsolved. It is much easier for a bureaucracy to produce crap like the above than to engineer quality regulation.

      Back to financial organization, they absolutely need to be properly regulated. If you were listening with objective ears you would know that a few voices crying for laissez-faire does not make it a tenet of 'the right' (or - as you seem to call it - 'you people'). Most people, in my judgment, are in favor of effective regulation of financial and other organizations. How many people trust ALL businesses to produce safe consumables if safety cuts into profit? Also, bear in mind that the financial organizations had substantial regulations in place prior to the financial crisis – it is effective and enforced regulation (necessary & sufficient) that is needed. Quality, not quantity.

      Do you have any understanding of how global finance works in today's world? Do you remember the consequences of letting Lehman Brothers collapse? Are you aware of what ramifications the European debt crisis will have on us and what cutting these size of the large American banks would do in the face of this crisis?

      Do you understand that a straw man argument occurs when someone (you in this case) establishes or implies a position for the other (me, in this case) and argues against it? At what point in time did I suggest that the US should have let the financial sector crumble?

      It doesn't sound like it to me......

      You infer quite a bit from a sentence.

      • 3 votes
      #11.9 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:01 PM EDT
      multifariousone

      Freewill 11.7

      Not that I need anyone to answer for me but SquawCraw did a fine job in 11.8 and there's no need to repeat it.

      What is it that YOU think the Dodd-Frank bill will do, and were you aware that it was signed into law in July of 2010?

      Of course I know when it passed and I'm also aware that the Republican congress is doing its level best to dismantle it and not fund it.

      What it will do:

      To begin with it didn't go far enough. There should have been a complete reinstatement of the Glass-Steagell Act.

      That said, I have no time or inclination to debrief the entire act. If you're that interested you can read it in its entirety here: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h4173enr.txt.pdf

      For everyone' benefit however the preamble to the bill that states its purpose is:

      To promote the financial stability of the United States by improving accountability and transparency in the financial system, to end ‘‘too big to fail’’, to protect the American taxpayer by ending bailouts, to protect consumers from abusive financial services practices, and for other purposes.

      That is an extremely broad subject, so what is it specifically about global finance that you feel we don't understand? Since you brought it up, please be sure to explain what YOUR position is rather than just claiming that we don't understand it.

      I never stated any "we" in not understanding the subject discussed here, I was addressing the author who, from my experience, doesn't understand much about what he/she writes.

      The simple fact is that we live in an interdependent globalized economy. It is unfortunate that big American banks are essential to global economic stability. I don't like it and I certainly don't like the actions of the people at the top of those banks but the fact is that President Obama inherited the system, he didn't create it. Blaming him for our current economic woe is simply ridiculous to me.

      TiG.

      Politically Congress had to act in response to our financial melt-down. The degree to which this legislation helps or hurts remains to be seen as it rolls out over time. Regulations are not implicitly good. The trick is to provideeffective regulation and avoid the natural tendency of government to red-tape entities to death for unjustified returns.

      I agree mostly except that I would point out that government regulation is also not implicitly bad and that government does not necessarily red-tape entities to death for "unjustified" returns. Our history shows that most regulation has been enacted for mostly justified returns benefitting the common good.

      The hypocrisy comes from those who speak as though they are out to protect the American people as they continue to cater to that which secures power and opportunity. Cronyism, lobbyist relationships, etc. are long-standing problems involving both parties and I do not expect to see any resolution in my lifetime. That is, the hypocrisy will continue.

      I agree completely.

      Now to bring this to a single point: do you expect Goldman-Sachs will reduce its campaign contributions to the D party as a result of Dodd-Frank?

      No. I think they will only reduce their contributions to Democrats if they perceive that the "D's" will not win. Goldman and the rest of corporate America spread their contributions between both parties.

      Libertarians (I suspect you would consider them to your right) tend towards laissez-faire but you will find a number of us on the right who very much recognize the need for necessary and sufficient regulation.

      Most of the libertarians here oppose all regulation. We agree on the need for "necessary and sufficient" regulation although I recognize that we may disagree on what is necessary and sufficient but I'm always willing to debate that point by point. My problem is with absolutist ideologues.

      But that does not mean we should simply accept any and all regulation as ‘good’. That seems to be a key problem in these debates. People tend to attach extreme positions to their opposition (e.g. ‘the right wants no regulations’) when in reality the position is almost always not extreme – to have effective regulation and avoid disruptive, burdensome ineffective regulation.

      I agree again.

      Do you understand that a straw man argument occurs when someone (you in this case) establishes or implies a position for the other (me, in this case) and argues against it? At what point in time did I suggest that the US should have let the financial sector crumble?

      Of course I understand what a straw man argument is and I don't believe I presented one now or do I ever engage in such shenanigans nor do I think I ever implied that you suggested that the U.S. should have let the financial sector crumble.

      What I was commenting on was the notion that it was somehow hypocritical for the "D" party not to dissemble the "too big to fail" financial institutions. This is a complex issue. The current administration inherited these problems. The too big to fail institutions came to be because of Republican led deregulation. What I was pointing out is that it's not fair to criticize them because they can't put the genie back in the bottle.

      It doesn't sound like it to me......

      From this most recent exchange I must admit that the statement went too far. You seem to have a clear understanding of the issues.

      But that doesn't negate my opinion that the author of this article hasn't a clue what he/she is writing about. I stand by that.

      Thanks TIG for the opportunity to have a reasonable discussion.

      • 2 votes
      #11.10 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:13 PM EDT
      TiG.

      multifariousone

      I agree mostly except that I would point out that government regulation is also not implicitly bad and that government does not necessarily red-tape entities to death for "unjustified" returns.

      As I stated several time in my post while emphasizing the need for effective regulation.

      Our history shows that most regulation has been enacted for mostly justified returns benefitting the common good.

      I am not claiming evil intent on the part of lawmakers; rather I am talking incompetence. Getting regulation right is complicated … however it is their job.

      No. I think they will only reduce their contributions to Democrats if they perceive that the "D's" will not win. Goldman and the rest of corporate America spread their contributions between both parties.

      And in return for political contributions (visible and on public record and the subsequent ‘contributions’ off record and hidden) the politicians and officials cater to the aristocracy which supports their ambitions at the expense of the American people. Nothing new, just finishing the scenario so that it is stated explicitly and not left simply implied.

      My problem is with absolutist ideologues.

      I agree – groupthink and mindless partisanship are symptoms of public manipulation. So who benefits from everyday citizens repeating nonsense?

      What I was commenting on was the notion that it was somehow hypocritical for the "D" party not to dissemble the "too big to fail" financial institutions.

      Well I never made any mention of that notion so … you be the judge of my allegation.

      Thanks TIG for the opportunity to have a reasonable discussion

      While not a comment I expected, glad to be of service.

      • 4 votes
      #11.11 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:07 PM EDT
      Socrates1

      Scrawcraw:

      Freewill: Multi's first comment you highlight was totally warranted given the tenor and tone of Socrates initial post AND his numerous follow ups. He was obviously talking about something that he doesn't fully understand (which he has admitted) and therefore should be prepared to be called out on it.

      Actually I'd be interested in you supporting this statement. Obviously I disagree.

      Here's the comment from 11.5 that is being referenced.

      Thanks, the title sounds familiar, but I must admit I have never read it.

      That doesn't surprise me and it also doesn't surprise me that you are a proponent of ideas that you don't understand.

      Frankly, I see your comment as an arrow with no target.

      • 1 vote
      #11.12 - Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:49 AM EDT
      multifariousone

      I am not claiming evil intent on the part of lawmakers; rather I am talking incompetence. Getting regulation right is complicated … however it is their job.

      While there's no question that some legislation goes awry and produces unintended consequences I think that overall history shows that most legislation has been effective and when unintended consequences result corrections are made.

      And in return for political contributions (visible and on public record and the subsequent ‘contributions’ off record and hidden) the politicians and officials cater to the aristocracy which supports their ambitions at the expense of the American people. Nothing new, just finishing the scenario so that it is stated explicitly and not left simply implied.

      There's no question that politicians are beholden to big money. The solution is publicly financed elections taking all the money out of the system. While I don't expect this to happen anytime soon, especially in a time of a far-right Supreme Court, it certainly is what's needed.

      So who benefits from everyday citizens repeating nonsense?

      Those that originate the nonsense for their own political gain of course.

      • 2 votes
      #11.13 - Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:38 AM EDT
      Reply
      DBE928

      This is an interesting piece. Leftists, just like Rightists, can be Statists which is where today's left wing of the Democratic party is heading, to some extent.

      Government control is statism and the other end of that continuum is libertarianism.

      On the continuum of liberty (libertarianism) vs, tyranny (statism or fascism), the US is drifting toward statism, I would say. But the pendulum will swing back.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#12 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:54 PM EDT
      dbmcc

      Our government is controlled by a Plutocracy made up of big corporations and wall street. Big Banks, Big Pharma, big oil, big energy, and the military-industrial complex control our government by buying Congressman.

      • 1 vote
      #12.1 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:20 PM EDT
      Socrates1

      But the pendulum will swing back.

      If it can....or is forced to.

      I am not necessarily in disagreement with either 12 or 12.1.

      Thanks for commenting.

      • 2 votes
      #12.2 - Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:58 PM EDT
      Reply
      multifariousone

      Once again you prove you know nothing of what you write about.

      Definition of facism:

      An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

      This perfectly describes today's Republican/Tea Party.

      the Big Banks and Wall Street who are suddenly the darlings of the Left?

      My goodness your blind. You refuse to read or hear anything that doesn't fit your narrow and warped worldview.

      It has been the left that has condemned the actions of the big banks and the right that allowed them to get away with their destructive shenanigans; see Graham, Phil who would have been McCain's Treasury Secretary if the American people had been stupid enough to elect him.

      It was President Obama who is hated by big business that called them "fat cats". Remember?

      By the way, shutting down comments is a cowardly act. If you can't take the heat then don't light up the stove.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#13 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:26 AM EDT
      Socrates1

      And, once again, I reject every simplistic sloganeering "idea" presented in your above comment.

      I can only assume that it meets the criteria which you had previously suggested regarding your general commenting style and intent..to wit...to incite and embroil.

      By the way, shutting down comments is a cowardly act. If you can't take the heat then don't light up the stove.

      I'll address this accusation directly for a variety of reasons.

      1. You manage your column, I'll manage mine. Feel free to do as you wish on your column.

      2. I see shutting down the comments on the articles you are apparently referencing as both an act of courage as well as responsibility and certainly in no way suggesting I "can't take the heat". Further personal attacks might well be considered to be in violation of the CoH, but as you know I simply prefer for people to "out" themselves.

      By way of explanation, and for the benefit of others, I would suggest that if my primary intent in writing the articles which I publish wasto make money, engage in pointless conversations including personal attacks and name calling, increase personal visibility, engage in more pointless discussions characterized by discussion partners talking past each other with no evidence of real dialogue, up my comment count by allowing virtually the same comments and attitudes to be expressed time after time, and engage in even more pointless discussions of an increasingly personal nature, than I would simply leave the option to make comments open.

      In addition, it hardly requires much imagination for one to predict that closing off such comments would result in accusations such as the one above by those making such comments which further suggests that the easiest course of action would, once again, be to leave the option of comments open.

      In other words, standing up to those who display certain characteristics requires far more courage than simply acquiescing to their desires and demands and in no way suggests fear of the infantile nonsense that such people may attempt to dispense.

      The short version of why I cut off the comments? I tired of wading through meaningless comments primarily made by the same person essentially saying the same thing in practically the same way. I thought to myself, if I were a person tracking this article would I be pleased, or annoyed...more informed, or less so, each time I returned to read the various comments which caused the article to once again appear on my tracker. The answer, and my answer, was obvious. The choice than became one of choosing between deleting individual comments and realizing that, at least for the moment, it might be better to accept that most had had the opportunity to present their views, and that the time had come to bring the discussion to a close.

        #13.1 - Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:43 AM EDT
        multifariousone

        And, once again, I reject every simplistic sloganeering "idea" presented in your above comment.

        I'm sure you do. But the question is do you have the talent and the intellect to refute them?

        BTW: this is a dictionary definition

        An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

        You know what dictionary is don't ya Socrates1? Just open one and read.

        I see shutting down the comments on the articles you are apparently referencing as both an act of courage

        I'm betting you never thought it to be a courageous act until it was pointed out that it was a cowardly one.

        I post a lot and have never shut down comments ever. It's up to the reader to decide if they wish to continue to follow the conversation or not. It's the seeders obligation to accommodate the reader and if readers wish to continue to comment so be it.

        Additionally, new readers join a given conversation all the time. By cutting off comments you deny newly joined readers the opportunity to express themselves which you did in the two most egregious cases.

        Like I said, if you can't stand the heat don't light the stove. It is clear that you shut down comments because you were being called out on your ridiculous assertions and your incoherent writing.

        • 1 vote
        #13.2 - Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:54 AM EDT
        Socrates1

        I visited your "column"...you've probably made more comments on my articles than on your own. Perhaps there is a difference in how much is left to be said when a particular article has 3 comments attached to it vs 300....particularly if we find that it is the same person commenting over and over.

        As I said, feel free to administer your column any way you like...as long as you follow the CoH.

        And, I might suggest that your comments and your need to attack me on this subject just continue to prove my point,

        And your accusations have/had nothing to do with the reason I shut down comments or my reasoning.

        You're boring me...what happened to the entertainment?

        • 1 vote
        #13.3 - Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:04 PM EDT
        multifariousone

        You're boring me...what happened to the entertainment?

        Hey, I'm having a great time.

        By the way I'm ranked #55 on the leaderboard in the last three months, where are you?

        And your accusations have/had nothing to do with the reason I shut down comments or my reasoning.

        I'm betting that I hit the nail on the head. Like I said, "if you can't take the heat don't light the stove".

        • 2 votes
        #13.4 - Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:53 AM EDT
        Socrates1

        Frankly, if all the comments start resembling the one above it's time to start thinking about cutting them off.

        • 3 votes
        #13.5 - Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:19 PM EDT
        multifariousone

        Frankly, if all the comments start resembling the one above it's time to start thinking about cutting them off.

        This was a direct response to your #13.3.

        Like I said, "if you can't take the heat don't light the stove".

        Part of the value of Newsvine is calling out inane, uneducated and frankly stupid posts and comments from inane, uneducated and frankly stupid seeders and commentators. I look upon this as providing a service on a site whose credo is "Get Smarter Here".

        Anyone who can't take the heat shouldn't light the fire.

        • 2 votes
        #13.6 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:30 AM EDT
        Socrates1

        See what I mean.....

        • 2 votes
        #13.7 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:35 PM EDT
        multifariousone

        See what I mean.....

        Frankly, no. What do you mean?

        • 3 votes
        #13.8 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:44 PM EDT
        Reply
        multifariousone

        But the pendulum will swing back.

        In the face of our biggest threat, becoming a second-rate economy, I think not. Building our economy to the scale required in the face of a global threat takes more government, not less.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#14 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:05 AM EDT
        dbmcc

        "If your belief is that we

        need a government big enough to protect all americans not just a lucky few

        How does that work when big business and big labor are in bed with that government?

        If he had focused on the Bankers and Wall Street at that time it would have made the recession worse!"

        WE NEED TO GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS. MONEY IS THE GREAT CORRUPTING INFLUENCE ON OUR GOVERNMENT. " ALL OF THE REST OF US HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO PAWNS. WE HAVE BEEN DIVIDED AND CONQUERED BY MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES AND THE RICH.

          Reply#15 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:29 PM EDT
          owlsview

          Socrates, my good friend Socrates, I do empathize with the position that you find yourself in.

          I shall attempt to answer your question in the context I believe you presented it.

          The left wing is an industry, so is the right wing, moderates are divisions within industry. Special interest groups including lobbyists are sub-industries.

          "WE NEED TO GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS. MONEY IS THE GREAT CORRUPTING INFLUENCE ON OUR GOVERNMENT. " ALL OF THE REST OF US HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO PAWNS. WE HAVE BEEN DIVIDED AND CONQUERED BY MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES AND THE RICH."

          We hear this and say this all of the time. Do we really understand what we say and hear?

          The person, persons or group(s) of persons who could be at the steering heel of our economy and the world's economy dot not necessarily give a rat's behind about the ideology of either the left or the right. They may live by their very own ideology. Control of all wealth and power.

          They may well be industrialists. Wasn't it "Fascist" practices by factory owners and other venues such as transportation of goods that drove the people to rise up and form unions in the first place?

          I would like to put forward the fact that nothing was done while the Democrats had full majority is, that in fact, we are being led by industrial fascists. Which in turn I believe answers your question.

          • 5 votes
          Reply#16 - Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:16 PM EDT
          Socrates1

          Thank you Owlsview.

          • 1 vote
          #16.1 - Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:45 AM EDT
          multifariousone

          I shall attempt to answer your question in the context I believe you presented it.

          Congratulations on a heroic effort.

          • 2 votes
          #16.2 - Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:03 AM EDT
          Reply
          WillBoyd

          Socrates,

          As usual you have hit another hot button.

          I think you are on the right track as far as your thinking goes. I find that it is always important to ask questions and the why question is one that always seems to cause heartburn. Most people do not like to have to answer for the why of their actions but rather prefer to keep things shades of grey.

          Found this wiki on fascism to be educational and thought it would add to the thoughts expressed.

          Another thought I have is how many here who have made comments about your use of WWII Germany and the NAZI regime have failed to note that Germany led up to the insanity of the NAZI regime and it did not just happen over night. The Germany that existed from 1920-1933 was different than what came after. Yet what came after is a picture of the worst possible outcome. the point is that it started small and grew into something terrible and it will only be by diligence and a watchful eye that this type of thing never happens again. This linkhas a decent time line of some events that happened in the interwar period.

            Reply#17 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:10 PM EDT
            Socrates1

            As usual, right on the mark.

            According to most scholars of fascism, there are both left and right influences on fascism as a social movement, and fascism, especially once in power, has historically attacked communism, conservatism and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the "far left" or "extreme left."[8]

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

            (Bolding mine).

            Interesting how close to the truth one can come simply by following a logical trail from beginning to end.

            • 2 votes
            #17.1 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:41 PM EDT
            CL1

            Thank you, for that, Socrates.

            I agree that fascism, in attacking those 'three' mentioned above, would have to point 'directly' to the NeoCon agenda - which, to me, is obviously coming from the "extreme" liberal Left by not complying with those others, certainly not a "conservative" approach - as I was attempting to point out in your other article.

            • 3 votes
            #17.2 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:29 PM EDT
            multifariousone

            I agree that fascism, in attacking those 'three' mentioned above, would have to point 'directly' to the NeoCon agenda - which, to me, is obviously coming from the "extreme" liberal Left by not complying with those others, certainly not a "conservative" approach - as I was attempting to point out in your other article.

            CL1: let me get this straight. Is your contention that Neo-Con's are far left?

            • 1 vote
            #17.3 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:49 PM EDT
            CL1

            Yes. I can't take full credit for that notion, as I was enlightened by another Viner. They commented at the time that the majority of us don't want to recognize it, as many see the connection of the military, powerful leaders and Big Business all coming from the Conservative leaders. And, yes, they are - as well as the Democrats. They are a Party of their own, in a way, as extreme progressives that make changes within the system that benefit the wealthy and Nationalistic goals.. the problem for us is that we can't tell who they are because they are divided up between the two political factions.

            • 4 votes
            #17.4 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:35 PM EDT
            Reply
            multifariousone

            as extreme progressives

            Labeling Neo Con's as extreme progressives is groundless and ridiculous. It's simply a figment of your own imagination brought forth in a naked attempt to denigrate progressives and a really delusional idea.

            I know of no liberal/progressive that embraces the neo-con agenda. Do you have examples or just conjecture?

            • 1 vote
            Reply#18 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:41 PM EDT
            CL1

            Labeling Neo Con's as extreme progressives is groundless and ridiculous. It's simply a figment of your own imagination brought forth in a naked attempt to denigrate progressives and a really delusional idea.

            Based on the fact that a true Conservative is not progressive - a liberal progressive is.

            I know of no liberal/progressive that embraces the neo-con agenda.

            I know. That's what I said, too.

            • 1 vote
            #18.1 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:45 PM EDT
            multifariousone

            #18.1

            Huh?

            • 1 vote
            #18.2 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:01 PM EDT
            CL1

            I stated in my original comment that the NeoCon agenda is not a Conservative stance.

            Another approach, the agenda of the Rothschild's, Rockefellers, Bushes, Pillsbury's, etc. is not one of a Conservative ideal.

            con·serv·a·tive/kənˈsərvətiv/

            Adjective: Holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in politics or religion.
            Noun: A person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes, typically in politics.

            *****

            That would not be the definition of a NeoCon which promotes the extreme opposite.

            • 1 vote
            #18.3 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:26 PM EDT
            Reply
            I, Borg

            Well done. I have long believed that Nazism was mistaken for a right-wing phenomenon at our peril. Stalin and Hitler each utilized both Marxist and Fascist tactics to consolidate and expand their power. You have done your homework. It's good to see that after all the misinformation about what the Second World War was really about, someone didn't miss the point.

            Power is power, and the lust for it leads those seeking it to use whatever rhetoric or tactics or alliances are necessary to acquire it and wield it.

            That's why I'm not buying this "Christian Nation" package. Neither the historic record nor the Bible support it. Practically begging on my knees in this venue for someone to show me the factual evidence supporting the notion, no facts come forth. Just rhetoric.

            I think decent God-fearing people are being led down a path. What all these mega-Christian organizations are really after is power. Stalin hijacked Marxism for power's sake. Hitler hijacked German nationalism for power's sake. Bush hijacked outrage over 9/11 for power's sake. Who's hijacking the evangelicals?

            • 1 vote
            Reply#19 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:23 AM EDT
            Socrates1

            Well....

            First, thank you for taking the time to come to my column, consider the article, and make a thoughtful comment.

            Second, I've written a variety of articles on the subject, some older and harder to find, and I'll provide one itsy bitsy link, just so you don't think I'm simply self promoting.

            This one is more why I support the concept, rather than perhaps the proof you request.

            http://socrates1.newsvine.com/_news/2009/11/27/3553109-why-i-defend-christianity

            Another link which I found fascinating, possibly because it agreed with everything I've been saying, but it is a bit long...

            http://socrates1.newsvine.com/_news/2011/03/23/6326154-who-put-the-west-in-western-civilization

            Another link regarding the influence of Christianity..

            http://socrates1.newsvine.com/_news/2010/06/15/4513370-at-the-origins-of-english-rationalism

            Maybe the closest to what you requested..

            http://socrates1.newsvine.com/_news/2010/04/07/4127943-a-critical-examination-of-deism-is-the-united-states-founded-on-christian-principles

            I understand, if you're like most of "us" that you'd rather I just stated my opinion, but I have done so numerous times and would appreciate you taking a look at least one of the provided links prior to any further discussion.

            • 1 vote
            #19.1 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:49 AM EDT
            Socrates1

            I will take the time to respond to...

            think decent God-fearing people are being led down a path. What all these mega-Christian organizations are really after is power. Stalin hijacked Marxism for power's sake. Hitler hijacked German nationalism for power's sake. Bush hijacked outrage over 9/11 for power's sake. Who's hijacking the evangelicals?

            Maybe so, in terms of being led down the path. Nobody can really deny that people will use anything to obtain power.

            On the other hand..

            Christianity has often been used against such attempts.

            Who is allowing them to "seize power"?

            I would suggest it might be those who lump all Christians together as supporting the ones you don't.

            • 2 votes
            #19.2 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:52 AM EDT
            Reply
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