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SOCRATES1

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Why I Don't Trust "Natheists" (New Atheists)

Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:29 PM EST
us, religion, united-states, christian, freedom, constitution, society, ethics, atheism, philosophy, first-amendment, morality, values, atheist, tolerance, clear-thinking, natheist, natheism
By Socrates1
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I catch a lot of heat for questioning the Natheist world view.  Ironically, that happens to be one of the reasons I don’t trust Natheists.  You see, it was my understanding that their claim to fame was in their ability to think logically, embrace independent thought, as well as their desire to build a society tolerant of differing views.  Now, some of you may be surprised to learn that I’m no fan of the Religious Far Right; in fact, some of their behavior is downright scary, but why on earth would I wish to embrace another ideology which is just as, if not more, intolerant?  Just as I have the right to hold Christians accountable for their actions based on their own expressed value system, so do I also have the right to hold Natheists accountable for their stated positions. 

Natheists decry the fact that poll after poll shows that natheists are considered suspect by much of the general public, and yet they do very little to address that perception.  Much like a number of other groups that come to mind, they prefer to play the victim rather than examining why this perception exists in the first place.  It is this inability to realistically assess themselves which, to me, shows just how right their many critics are. 

Recently I was asked to replace my contention that “natheists are valueless” with the more accurate, from my discussion partner’s point of view, phrase, “natheism is valueless”, to which I agreed in order to make my larger point.  My larger point being, according to many natheists, that natheism itself claims no particular value system.  I would actually disagree, but, assuming this to be true, then is it any wonder that others question the value system of any particular natheist?  On the other hand, if this isn’t true, then the only value system I see is a negative value system which includes the very intolerance they claim to oppose.

Natheists seem to have this victim complex evidenced by their constant whining about how poorly they are treated and how severely they are discriminated against.  Their poor fragile psyches seem unable to withstand any world view that might challenge their own.  Is it really true that, like vampires, exposure to the sign of the cross, Christmas decorations, and the like, cause them severe physical distress and might even cause their bodies to disintegrate before our very eyes?  Natheists are in the minority and thus, it would seem to me, a certain tolerance for the practices of the majority is in order.  What real harm is there in a natheist not only tolerating, but embracing, a value system that, in sum, is more tolerant than theirs?  If, just for the sake of an argument, such a cosmic shift in attitudes were to occur, it would seem to me that the efforts of the Founding Fathers to provide a society where like-minded people, regardless of professed faith, could live together in peace would be that much closer to being realized.

So, yes, I take a lot of heat for pointing out the many flaws I see present in the world view of a natheist, but I would suggest the fault lies with them.  When they exhibit an ability to adhere to their own value system, when they exhibit an ability to tolerate those who disagree with them, when they can clearly articulate a positive alternative to the present system, and when they begin to cast out those who would twist the truth to make a point, maybe, just maybe, they will have earned the right to criticize the value systems of others.

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  • Public Discussion (149)
Socrates1

Look within yourself....

  • 4 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:29 PM EST
ryoushi12

And what exactly is the DATING for these "new" atheists?

More nonsense from someone who "claims" one thing and preaches the opposite.

Why, socrates don't you ADMIT what you REALLY are, not what you pretend to be.

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:36 PM EST
CL1

ryoushi, imo, one does not have to believe in a particular God or creator, nor follow a particular doctrine in order to appreciate what our nation was founded on (Christianity), how it aided freedom and secularism (as diversity in faith or lack of), as well as how the FF used it to guide them in setting up American common law, in addition to other influences.

I don't find a formal definition of a "natheist," so putting this into the perspective of reality, I would would see the term relevant to hypocrisy... those that want to have their cake, eat it too, and could care less what's in their cake, who baked it or if it's good for them. ☺

  • 3 votes
#1.2 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:49 PM EST
Socrates1

ry...I am exactly who I claim to be.

On the other hand, I have seen little evidence of natheists doing any form of self examination or criticism.

  • 2 votes
#1.3 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:01 PM EST
ryoushi12

No, you are not. Your posts show that you do NOT believe what you CLAIM to believe and in fact are what you say you are not. Just Admit what you REALLY are, you'll feel better for not hiding and living a lie here on Newsvine.

  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:14 PM EST
Socrates1

ryoushi12...Apparently I missed some comments somewhere along the line...and your's was one of them.

If you so chooose...please show me where my post show that I do not believe what I claim to believe.

As an aside...if I missed other comments, it was not my intention.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not known for "hiding" here on Newsvine.

    #1.5 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:48 PM EST
    WatcherInTheShadows

    It's called "baiting" Socrates. You most likely caused a emotional response *anger* in him so he's attempting to anger you. It's base trolling and not to mention against CoH but there it is.

    • 1 vote
    #1.6 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:19 AM EST
    Reply
    American Spirit

    , it was my understanding that their claim to fame was in their ability to think logically, embrace independent thought, as well as their desire to build a society tolerant of differing views.

    You are totally missing everything. This is not an atheist claim to fame. It's a human one.

    Natheists decry the fact that poll after poll shows that natheists are considered suspect by much of the general public, and yet they do very little to address that perception. Much like a number of other groups that come to mind

    So where homosexuals at one time. It's the ones around them that had to change, not they themselves.

    pointing out the many flaws I see present in the world view of a natheist, but I would suggest the fault lies with them.

    Since their world view is the one with which one is born with, the only flaw exists elsewhere. Try looking in you.

    • 13 votes
    Reply#2 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:58 PM EST
    Socrates1

    I see no evidence you will take my advise.

    • 5 votes
    #2.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:59 PM EST
    MYOB-1251250

    Why should he, you will not take his.

    • 9 votes
    #2.2 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:37 PM EST
    Rank on Rank

    Socrates,

    (((Applause!)))

    Your honesty, clarity and enviable eloquence have produced yet another splendid read. Thanks.

    • 6 votes
    #2.3 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:43 PM EST
    Socrates1

    MYOB...I was hoping for something a little more substantial. Truth would even be nice.

    Thank you Rank on Rank...I aim for those "outside the building", but always appreciate comments which suggest my efforts are not in vain.

    • 4 votes
    #2.4 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:02 PM EST
    TheJackel

    Tolerance deals with practical tolerance. This only means that either side only needs to respect each other enough not to ban each others beliefs, force each other into the other persons beliefs, kill each other over difference of beliefs, or kick each other in the balls ect.. It's called co-existence.. So heated debates are fine, disagreement if fine, and so on.. So if you can walk away unharmed, you have a better sense of what practical tolerance is. And remember, tons and tons of theists are just as applicable to your posts main premises. The ones we need to keep in check are the ones whom think the world should conform to their specific views.. This is why a secular system of co-existence under common law is important right?... We don't Atheist states, or Theocracies do we? I sure the hell don't.. Those never end up well.

    And I can't assume Natheist values.. It's ignorant to assume people are magically bad people just because they have a difference of view. I think what you're getting at Socrates is extremism.. I often have to defend theist from extremist Atheists who think religion should be banned ect.. They just become like the extremist theists at that point.

    • 6 votes
    #2.5 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:53 PM EST
    Socrates1

    All and all a reasonable post, if you care about my opinion.

    A couple of points to consider.

    You note the difference between "atheist" and "secular", but I ask you to consider the difference in practice. If "no religion" is the only position which can meet with "government approval", you don't have a fair playing field for those who are religious. The default, at best, would be agnostic. Otherwise if the government, for instance, decided it could not take a position in the evolution/creationism debate, would you suggest that by not discussing it at all the public would be getting equal information? (perhaps, not the best example, but...)

    Regarding "natheists", I am not the only one who differentiates between "new" and "old" atheists. But, if the definition includes mean spirited, illogical, etc., then one can certainly make the case that they are mean spirited, illogical, etc...see what I mean?

    I agree, there are extremists from both sides. I assume the moderate Christians won't let things get out of hand. Problem, for me, I don't make the same assumption regarding the moderate Atheists. Let me point out, I'm attempting to do that very thing.

    • 4 votes
    #2.6 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:52 PM EST
    Reply
    Stop The Hypocrisy

    Would the esteemed seeder care to point out even one or two verifiable examples of "natheists" (whomever or whatever they might be):

    - prefer(ring) to play the victim
    - (being unable to) realistically assess themselves
    - constant(ly) whining about how poorly they are treated and how severely they are discriminated against

    Full disclosure: I don't know what "natheists" do since I don't know any, and the writer of the piece was no help in defining that particular portmanteau word. But to a man (and woman), every atheist I know is refreshingly free of the odious characteristics of whining and self-pity. Nay, they even realize a good deal of humor out of the idea of an omnipresent "sky daddy" and the folks who sincerely believe in said sky daddy.

    • 14 votes
    Reply#3 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:59 PM EST
    grumpy_jon

    But to a man (and woman), every atheist I know is refreshingly free of the odious characteristics of whining and self-pity. Nay, they even realize a good deal of humor out of the idea of an omnipresent "sky daddy" and the folks who sincerely believe in said sky daddy.

    I am always amazed at one who disintegrates his/her own argument by reverting to petty ridicule.

    • 7 votes
    #3.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:14 PM EST
    Socrates1

    There is always a great degree of irony in discussion such as this.

    Thanks for pointing it out.

    • 5 votes
    #3.2 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:26 PM EST
    Drakkonis

    An excellent article, Socrates1. I don't think it could be said any better or more plainly. I wish more people would understand what you're talking about.

    I am always amazed at one who disintegrates his/her own argument by reverting to petty ridicule.

    Equally amazing is their failure to realize they have done so.

    • 3 votes
    #3.3 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:44 PM EST
    ryoushi12

    Amazing, I see humor and you see snarkiness, but then we often see ourselves in others, don't we socrates and grumpy.

    • 3 votes
    #3.4 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:38 PM EST
    Socrates1

    Summing up the general natheist argument..."I know you are, but I know I'm not...."

    Interesting how any suggestion that they might wish to re-examine themselves, per their supposed faith in science and logic, always seems to result in a suggestion that there is no need.

    Perfect?

      #3.5 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:07 PM EST
      Stop The Hypocrisy

      I am always amazed at one who disintegrates his/her own argument by reverting to petty ridicule.

      I am always amazed at one who utterly fails to notice quotation marks (which define themselves), hastily declares victory then runs like a scalded cat.

      Did you care to refute anything I posted, or are you here merely to throw rocks?

      • 2 votes
      #3.6 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:50 PM EST
      grumpy_jon

      Did you care to refute anything I posted, or are you here merely to throw rocks?

      Like most Christians, I see the "sky daddy" (and other such, sarcastically styled, monikers) as as disparaging of my faith and beliefs as most atheists claim to be victims of.

      As far as the commentary on "most atheists", you apparently haven't seen the vitriol that is passed on the Vine as in "defense of atheism". I really don't care what you believe, or even why you believe it. That's entirely up to you. I wasn't "throwing rocks," as you claim; I was merely pointing out the obvious hypocrisy that you utilized, Stop The Hypocrisy (in yet another ironic twist of fate).

      • 6 votes
      #3.7 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:41 PM EST
      WatcherInTheShadows

      @Stop The Hypocrisy:

      Dr. Richard Dawkins.

      • 2 votes
      #3.8 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:23 AM EST
      Don't you people have jobs?

      well...

      that's... one.

      • 2 votes
      #3.9 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:08 AM EST
      WatcherInTheShadows

      Sam Harris for another.

      • 2 votes
      #3.10 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:08 AM EST
      Don't you people have jobs?

      who?

      (must have a lot of pull if it took you this long to come up with a name)

      Now go make up some more bull@!$%#, K?

      • 2 votes
      #3.11 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:24 AM EST
      WatcherInTheShadows

      No, it's called having other things to do then spend all my time arguing on the internet with a internet troll.

      Here, read for yourself:

      New Atheism is the name given to the ideas promoted by a collection of 21st-century atheistwriters who have advocated the view that "religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized, and exposed by rational argument wherever its influence arises." The series of popular books associated with NewAtheism argue that recent scientific advancements demand a less accommodating attitude toward religion, superstition, and religious fanaticism than had traditionally been extended by many secularists. The term is commonly associated with individuals such as Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and the late Christopher Hitchens (together called "the Four Horsemen" in a 2007 discussion they held on their criticisms of religion, a name that has stuck) and Victor J. Stenger. Several best-selling books by these authors, published between 2004 and 2007, form the basis for much of the discussion of newatheism.

      Source

      And to the author of the comment, to whom I was addressing. Yea, blaming "religion" for all the ills of the world is in no sense whining.... /sarc

      • 3 votes
      #3.12 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:51 AM EST
      Reply
      Socrates1

      I could point out quite a few articles and seeds, but try the recent one on the "Atheist Rally" from MSNBC...I'd appreciate a return comment...after reading some of the ones there.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#4 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:02 PM EST
      Stop The Hypocrisy

      I could point out quite a few articles and seeds

      I admit that I'm puzzled why you didn't do so. It is poor form to ask somebody else to attempt to prove your points for you.

      but try the recent one on the "Atheist Rally" from MSNBC.

      I think I'm going to need some help fulfilling your request, as the only link I could find regarding this alleged rally was about three search iterations deep into the current MSNBC page (not found on the front page). It resolved to the following link:

      http://www.theblaze.com/stories/atheists-to-hold-massive-woodstock-for-non-belief-in-washington-d-c/

      And again, I found not a trace of whining or self-pity there; simply an announcement about like-minded individuals associating with each other.

      I'd appreciate a return comment...after reading some of the ones there.

      Done. However, I would be much more interested in who or what you consider to be a "natheist". Name some names, if you don't mind.

      • 11 votes
      #4.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:14 PM EST
      Socrates1

      http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/16/10429346-atheists-bill-big-names-for-coming-out-party-in-capital?last=1329595383&threadId=3348073&commentId=62618540#vine-t

      Read the comments

      I admit that I'm puzzled why you didn't do so. It is poor form to ask somebody else to attempt to prove your points for you.

      Because I always feel such requests are a bit disengenious? Generally those who suggest that religion should be hidden away at school or at home exhibit the type of attitude of which I speak.

      Hawkins is certainly one, but googling for new atheists will find you plenty.

      Thanks for your participation.

      • 2 votes
      #4.2 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:31 PM EST
      Stop The Hypocrisy

      http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/16/10429346-atheists-bill-big-names-for-coming-out-party-in-capital?last=1329595383&threadId=3348073&commentId=62618540#vine-t

      Read the comments

      Done. But again, I detected not one syllable of whining, self-pity, condescension or even appeals to the Great Richard Dawkins in the Sky therein. The event sounds like a blast to me - a pity that I'm painting the cat next month or I'd be there with bells on.

      >>I admit that I'm puzzled why you didn't do so. It is poor form to ask
      >>somebody else to attempt to prove your points for you.

      Because I always feel such requests are a bit disengenious?

      I can't help what you feel. You're certainly entitled to your own feelings, and anybody attempting to deprive you of those are on a fool's errand.

      Generally those who suggest that religion should be hidden away at school or at home exhibit the type of attitude of which I speak.

      My young cousin, a Christian, attends public school in Texas. And he has never reported roving gangs of teachers or administrators pulling his hands apart from the praying position in the lunchroom to his parents or me. (Not that I've ever asked him about that sort of thing, but he's pretty media-savvy so I'm sure he would come forward with the sordid tale if something like that had actually happened to him.)

      Hawkins is certainly one, but googling for new atheists will find you plenty.

      Ah, a name. Thank you. I'm not sure exactly who "Hawkins" is in the atheist community, but I'm sure he's a bigwig since you came up with his name. All you need do now is quote this Hawkins (or Dawkins) fellow saying something whiny or self-pitying, and my intellectual destruction will be complete.

      • 6 votes
      #4.3 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:11 PM EST
      Socrates1

      Ah, a name. Thank you. I'm not sure exactly who "Hawkins" is in the atheist community, but I'm sure he's a bigwig since you came up with his name. All you need do now is quote this Hawkins (or Dawkins) fellow saying something whiny or self-pitying, and my intellectual destruction will be complete.

      Trip yourself up a bit? I thought you had no knowledge of who Dawkins was? A New Atheist.

      Are you suggesting he wasn't going around attacking the beliefs of others and attempting to "convert" believers?

      On the other hand, are you also suggesting that whatever Dawkins says goes?

        #4.4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:13 PM EST
        Reply
        grumpy_jon

        Such a well thought out and penned statement is deserving of many accolades; however, I can only offer "well done, sir." I have also been victimized by intolerance. I have victimized by this group (I'm still not sure what the difference is between "old atheists" and "new atheists" - if there is any flaw in your arguments) because I am a born again Christian. Remarkably, however, I have also been victimized by the crass and massive intolerance within the Christian community for tolerating, and even defending, the rights of atheists to believe what they do.

        Everyone has faith in something, and attributes their belief system to that faith. This is why there is an old, 19th Century, appellate court decision (in re: Hinckley's Estate - sorry, I don't have a direct link for the decision) that discusses, in part, that nobody, including atheists, are without religion. Try that one out on an atheist (if you are feeling particularly masochistic). The point still stands, what is called "religion" in the 19th century is, perhaps properly, called "faith" today.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#5 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:08 PM EST
        Socrates1

        grumpy-jon..

        "old" atheists" are what "new" atheists claim to be. ie. Who cares? If you and I agree on a basic value system, and you worship God, and I don't, what does it matter..until "the end"?

        • 3 votes
        #5.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:32 PM EST
        grumpy_jon

        what does it matter..until "the end"?

        Ironically enough, Socrates, if the atheists are right...nobody will care...they can't. Thanks for your input. If my faith is proven correct (at "the end"), then we each stand for what we are today. That's good enough for me.

          #5.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:34 PM EST
          Reply
          Don't you people have jobs?

          Always playing the poor, downtrodden oppressed, huh?

          So sad.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#6 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:18 PM EST
          Socrates1

          Agreed, but thanks for joining in.

          • 2 votes
          #6.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:33 PM EST
          Reply
          Polka14

          What is a "natheist"? I could not find the term in the dictionary.

          • 6 votes
          #7 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:20 PM EST
          MWeaver

          A natheist is somebody who doesn't believe that religion is required for a society to be moral. A natheist is somebody who believes in the importance of separation of church and state.

          There are many Christian natheist in the world along with many Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and Atheist natheist.

          Soc is supposedly atheist, but extremely Christian apologetic. All because they are the majority of our society.

          • 10 votes
          #7.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:05 PM EST
          Grisham

          Natheist

          -A wonderfully intelligent man who defied law and proclaimed himself an atheist.

          -One who licks a mean pussy.

          http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Natheist

          I wonder which one Soc meant - the wonderfully intelligent man or the one who licks...

          I think he's trying to combine the words 'new' and 'atheist', which is the term many people give to those who question religious dogma and it's role in society. They call them New Atheists.

          I could be wrong and Soc is really talking about the above definitions. It's probably just an amusing twist though.

          • 9 votes
          #7.2 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:14 PM EST
          MWeaver

          -A wonderfully intelligent man who defied law and proclaimed himself an atheist.

          -One who licks a mean pussy.

          LOL Perfect.

          • 6 votes
          #7.3 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:16 PM EST
          Polka14

          Okay, then this article really has very limited legitimacy in my opinion. All new atheists would be different people with different points of view and should not be categorized in the same group. No two atheists are the same because there is no unifying philosophy involved.

          • 6 votes
          #7.4 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:25 PM EST
          Socrates1

          I'm not the one who coined the phrase "new atheist".

          A "natheist", new atheist, is one who claims tolerance, but doesn't evidence it.

          • 2 votes
          #7.5 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:09 PM EST
          MWeaver

          new atheist, is one who claims tolerance, but doesn't evidence it.

          So, that includes you. This doesn't sound very tolerant, in fact it sounds quite condescending and judgmental, along with the rest of your article(s):

          Their poor fragile psyches seem unable to withstand any world view that might challenge their own

          • 9 votes
          #7.6 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:24 PM EST
          Grisham

          No, you coined the phrase 'natheist'. I just supplied the definition for you since you seemed unaware of it.

          • 7 votes
          #7.7 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:49 PM EST
          MWeaver

          No doubt Grisham. The fact is, Soc is the very definition of what is wrong with Christianity in America. He has argued everything from teaching creationism in schools to including the bible in our government. If American history had a record of his type of thinking, majority rule thinking, we would be a very different country today.

          And when somebody calls him out on it, he points the finger, cries victim, and gives us cute little nick-names, even though he claims to be a free thinker himself.

          It's not at all logical or reasoned, but it's great entertainment.

          • 7 votes
          #7.8 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:57 PM EST
          mrsrachelm

          MWeaver:

          Strange but I hear many Christians say the exact same thing you just did when -they- are on the receiving end of similar (and worse) than the two sentences you copy/pasted to comment upon. Yet when -they- say what you just did -they- are told to stop whining and playing the victim card.

          See how that works? If it's wrong when being done to -you-, it's wrong when being done to -them- too. However, it rarely is thought of that way when the atheists are doling it out. It's not until -they- are in the receiving end that it suddenly becomes outrageous and wrong. I think this is exactly what Soc is trying to point out when saying:

          A "natheist", new atheist, is one who claims tolerance, but doesn't evidence it.

          Many, dare I say most, atheists on the vine have been exceedingly condescending and judgmental of Christians in a plethora of articles and comments throughout the history of the vine. Nary a week goes buy when Christians aren't ridiculed in some fashion and yet it's all perfectly okay to do so until ATHEISTS are on the receiving end.

          You know what? It's NEVER okay. I don't have to treat you like dirt, mock your values, ridicule your beliefs in the most condescending use of language I can think of etc simply because you don't share the same beliefs as I do. I can think you're wrong and you can think I'm wrong without trying to humiliate each other as much as possible. Unfortunately, it appears many of the atheists on the vine think it's perfectly fine and dandy to do so to me and if I dare to speak out about it, I'm ridiculed even more for "playing the victim card".

          It is NOT OKAY for anyone to mock, be condescending etc of someone else based on a difference in spiritual belief. Period.

          • 5 votes
          #7.9 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:01 PM EST
          CL1

          majority rule thinking,

          Not to derail, but just to comment on that thought: despite our elector having the capability of ignoring the popular vote, isn't it majority rule that is supposed to reflect his/er vote?

          • 2 votes
          #7.10 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:07 PM EST
          MWeaver

          mrsrachelm

          First. I'm not sure what tone you are trying to project with the "-" stuff, I don't know that means.

          Second. Is this an article about Atheist on NewsVine or Atheist in society? As society goes, in America, there is no group more judgmental and suppressive than Christians.

          • 9 votes
          #7.11 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:11 PM EST
          MWeaver

          isn't it majority rule that is supposed to reflect his/er vote?

          Majority does rule, as long as the rights of the few are equal to that of the many.

          • 8 votes
          #7.12 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:13 PM EST
          CL1

          Ok.. thanks for replying, MW!

          I wish that was happening, lol.

          • 2 votes
          #7.13 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:23 PM EST
          Polka14

          A "natheist", new atheist, is one who claims tolerance, but doesn't evidence it.

          It is essentially difficult if not impossible to express tolerance towards those that are not tolerant.

          • 5 votes
          #7.14 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:29 PM EST
          MWeaver

          It is essentially difficult if not impossible to express tolerance towards those that are not tolerant.

          *nodding* I have no problem calling an @!$%# an @!$%#.

          • 4 votes
          #7.15 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:32 PM EST
          CL1

          7.14...Christians and others do it all of the time.

          It is only the 'intolerant' that are incapable of expressing tolerance.

          • 2 votes
          #7.16 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:35 PM EST
          Polka14

          7.14...Christians and others do it all of the time.

          Very very very few Christians actually follow that ideal. Probably less then 1% of 1%.

          • 2 votes
          #7.17 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:39 PM EST
          Fla Pat

          Nary a week goes buy when Christians aren't ridiculed in some fashion and yet it's all perfectly okay to do so until ATHEISTS are on the receiving end.

          Could it possibly be the positions or content of the commentator's statements that generate the "ridicule" you speak of and not the fact the commentator is Christian? Seems everyone has become overly sensitive and very personally defensive when questioned or shown an opposing argument.

          • 2 votes
          #7.18 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:17 PM EST
          TheJackel

          Btw, there are also Atheist Christians whom don't believe in GOD, supernatural phenomenon, or that Christ was a GOD ect. These people just follow the teachings of Jesus.. :

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

          http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CEQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fchristianatheist.com%2F&ei=FHRAT925McTo0QHukLnwBw&usg=AFQjCNHWe2kVsOCvNGXwypPtZCw-yJOf3w

          Now I find that amusing :)

          • 1 vote
          #7.19 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:04 PM EST
          Grisham

          It is NOT OKAY for anyone to mock, be condescending etc of someone else based on a difference in spiritual belief. Period.

          Out of curiosity mrsrachelm,

          Do you ever hear these things when off the Vine? For example, if someone finds out you're a Christian (like a family member or someone you've just met) do they get a look of distaste on their face? Do their eyes get big as saucers in disbelief? Do they spread about that you have no morals or are valueless?

          Do they mock you for your sexual orientation? Do they limit your rights based on that orientation?

          Have you ever been beaten up for being a Christian? Have you ever had family members disown you because they found out you were a Christian? Have you ever met anyone who has? Have you ever been told that you are going to rot in hell for all eternity because you're a Christian? Have you had family members be deathly afraid of your Christianity because they believe your eternal soul is in jeopardy?

          Do you ever have to hide your beliefs because you think it might impact your job or cause people to dislike you?

          • 6 votes
          #7.20 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:07 AM EST
          mrsrachelm

          Have you ever been beaten up for being a Christian?

          Does being gang raped count? I was gang raped by 5 Arab students who repeatedly called me an American Christian whore the whole time.

          Does it also count that they got away with it and no report was even filed because they had diplomatic immunity?

          Have you ever had family members disown you because they found out you were a Christian? Have you ever met anyone who has?

          I have at least 4 different close friends who were disowned/shunned by their friends and/or family because they were or became Christians. One because she was a Jewish Christian and her Jewish parents shunned her. Another who's parents were hard core Atheists and told their son he couldn't possibly love or respect them since he became a Christian so there was no longer a place for him in their home. He was only 15 at the time and went to live with his aunt. Lastly,two sisters who were once very close until the one realized she was homosexual and became very militant and started calling her Christian sister a "breeder" etc even though the sister wanted nothing more than to keep the close relationship they'd always had and never said one negative word to her. Does that count?

          Do you ever have to hide your beliefs because you think it might impact your job or cause people to dislike you?

          Never have. Never will. I was raised to be who I am and let the chips fall where they may.

          • 6 votes
          #7.21 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:07 AM EST
          Grisham

          Does being gang raped count? I was gang raped by 5 Arab students who repeatedly called me an American Christian whore the whole time.

          I'm very sorry that happened to you and the painful memory my question probably brought on you. I've never understood the entire, complex hatred that seems to be interwoven between some Arabs and some Christians.

          I have at least 4 different close friends who were disowned/shunned by their friends and/or family because they were or became Christians.

          Not that I doubt your word, but that's amazing considering last week alone I talked to three Americans who had NEVER met an atheist.

          One because she was a Jewish Christian and her Jewish parents shunned her.

          So another faith on faith problem.

          Another who's parents were hard core Atheists and told their son he couldn't possibly love or respect them since he became a Christian so there was no longer a place for him in their home. He was only 15 at the time and went to live with his aunt.

          And a douche bag parent. Another thing I don't understand is how parents demand that their children believe exactly as they do. Personally, I think they have the right to form their own beliefs or lack of belief. It should never be forced on them either way.

          Lastly,two sisters who were once very close until the one realized she was homosexual and became very militant and started calling her Christian sister a "breeder" etc even though the sister wanted nothing more than to keep the close relationship they'd always had and never said one negative word to her. Does that count?

          That's very strange and I wonder if there isn't more to the story. A lot more.

          Never have. Never will. I was raised to be who I am and let the chips fall where theymay.

          I've noticed. I like that about you. :)

          • 4 votes
          #7.22 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:26 AM EST
          mrsrachelm

          It's okay, Grisham.

          Yeah the rape is not a good memory but it happened a long time ago and except for occasional things here and there I've fought through and past that dark time.

          As far as having friends who have gone through the things I describe, you would have to know me better to understand how much I adore a varied experience in cultures, races, ideas, food, clothing, etc. I went to a very large University after going to a very large college and I met a LOT of people there from many different back grounds. We all had our own little international club going on, lol. I've always made a point of attending all manner of things outside the norm of my upbringing to learn and experience things. That in turn, allowed me to make friends with a wide array of people from a wide array of back grounds.

          The two sisters I mention were totally inseparable growing up. They even roomed together during their freshman year in college. That is when the one "came out" and I think she went quite a bit over board in her embracing of her homosexuality. It seemed almost as though she felt she had to steam roll over everyone else before they steam rolled over her. All of a sudden we weren't good enough for her any more. When she came out the only one who changed in how they treated each other was her. We were a hugely eclectic group so for us it was a matter of the initial shock and saying "Really? Wow, I didn't know that!" then shrugging and moving on. But for her, she seemed to feel she had to literally toss everything from her "old life" down the @!$%#ter in order to embrace this new life as an out homosexual. Sadly that included the sister who loved her so much as well as her friends. It didn't matter what we said, she always accused us f having some nefarious scheme of only pretending to be her friends in order to un-homosexualize her.

          I look back on it now and realize it was defensiveness pure and simple. She was fearful and felt vulnerable. I understand how she reacted after coming out as being a "get them before they get me" reaction. Unfortunately, no such notion of "getting her" crossed our minds. She hasn't spoken to or even seen her family in 20 years or more. No one even knows if she's alive or dead. This is what happens when people assume or presume upon others without talking to them first. Really sad.

          • 4 votes
          #7.23 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:45 AM EST
          Socrates1

          Mrsr..obviously a person who should be respected. thank you for sharing.

          I'd suggest your response might have come as a bit of a surprise.

          Thing is, nothing you said seemed to sink in, which is a problem that I often see.....Yes, but....

          • 2 votes
          #7.24 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:39 PM EST
          mrsrachelm

          Thank you, Soc. Much appreciated. There are times here and there on the vine where I feel like I'm swimming in shark-infested waters, lol.

          • 3 votes
          #7.25 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:10 PM EST
          Socrates1

          I might suggest here..on the record...that the very notion of tolerance relates to those with whom you disagree...

          Tolerating behavior you support is not tolerance and thus nothing can be more ridiculous than a statement suggesting, well I'll let it speak for itself...

          It is essentially difficult if not impossible to express tolerance towards those that are not tolerant.

          Well who said tolerance was easy? and what's the point of tolerance if you don't tolerate those you don't wish to tolerate?

            #7.26 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:55 PM EST
            markpup

            Great comment - but interesting in practice.

            Let's say someone says I hate n****rs (yes you know what I put there) - that's not something I'd agree with, but now the question is should I tolerate it? And we all know people who think this way!!

            Often I do tolerate it. First, this person is honest it's certainly better than not helping someone with a "permanent tan" when they need it but claiming you're all tolerant and not racist and all that. Second, what's gained by fighting it? Your best bet to improve your world around you is to bring out and connect with what's best in people. But I wouldn't tolerate it if I thought clearly destructive behavior came out of it like going around beating someone up or something like that.

            And I find very nearly all the time, intolerance about this is someone wanting to yell at me about how great they are for being so cool and tolerant about race not like those "other people" than doing anything substantive to do something about racism or make the world better.

              #7.27 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:05 PM EST
              Socrates1

              markpup..thank you for your comment, and, btw, if some other comment of your's was missed by me I apologize....

              Yes...the concept of tolerance is an interesting one.

              Frankly, I would suggest that one could claim that what defines a society is what it does not tolerate and society is required to be intolerant.

                #7.28 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:17 PM EST
                Reply
                markpup

                It is often interesting to have a discussion with an atheist about how "open-minded" they are, but the diatribes following about any sort of religious expression continue in endless self-righteous fashion.

                I'd consider myself Deist - some label that as atheist some do not. It means I believe there is a spiritual higher power (God if you will) and I believe there is intelligent design in the formation of our world and how we got here - and there is evolution that took billions of years to unfold. I clearly don't even remotely adhere to any established religious worship or practice and have no inclination to do so.

                So it's usually the non-Deist type of atheist that gets on a super self-righteous high horse about it. Since I see sense in a higher power, it's absurd for me to judge anyone else's expression of how they choose to discern how they got here and why we're here. A non-Deist can't help but not shut up about it - but we all wish they would! Or at least admit they're not open minded about this.

                • 5 votes
                Reply#8 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:59 PM EST
                Socrates1

                markpup....exactly...no one cares, and yet these new atheists persist in shoving their views down everybody else's throats while claiming victim hood at the same time.

                • 2 votes
                #8.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:11 PM EST
                markpup

                Just 2 points - First, I'm not as annoyed about victimhood as the expression that they're being "open minded" while putting down almost everyone else - essentially showing how closed-minded they are. Second, lots of atheists I know don't act self-righteous about it and are great people! Just some do this.

                • 1 vote
                #8.2 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:23 PM EST
                CL1

                markpup..

                Or at least admit they're not open minded about this.

                That's how I see the issue, as well. Pardon my brevity, but it simply appears to be acknowledging that science can explain existence using 'deduction,' but it is incapable of explaining what is apparent using 'induction.' It is with that delineation, that they are being insular.

                • 3 votes
                #8.3 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:26 PM EST
                markpup

                Pretty good brevity!

                I believe in science, but I'd say science can't answer every question and never will be able to. Definitely questions about existence are out of scope!

                And I'm not about to be self-righteous enough to "fill in" an answer for someone else.

                • 3 votes
                #8.4 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:32 PM EST
                CL1

                And I'm not about to be self-righteous enough to "fill in" an answer for someone else.

                Be it existence or down to the level of 'values,' their righteousness stems from the same 'linear' thinking that because they are able to deduce to a particular sequence of events, then that somehow eliminates any 'reason' for its existence. This in turn, leads to the hypocrisy in any relevant area; as the author states:

                You see, it was my understanding that their claim to fame was in their ability to think logically, embrace independent thought, as well as their desire to build a society tolerant of differing views.

                "Differing views," as 'acceptable,' are simply intolerable to an true scientifically-based atheist (new or old:).

                • 2 votes
                #8.5 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:48 PM EST
                mrsrachelm

                markpup, I appreciate and respect the way you conduct yourself concerning this issue based on your comments above. Breath of fresh air. I especially respect this one:

                I believe in science, but I'd say science can't answer every question and never will be able to. Definitely questions about existence are out of scope!

                And I'm not about to be self-righteous enough to "fill in" an answer for someone else.

                I agree with that whole heartedly.

                • 2 votes
                #8.6 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:07 PM EST
                Reply
                Fla Pat

                My larger point being, according to many natheists, that natheism itself claims no particular value system.

                Taking religion out of the picture, do you think humans live with no values? Are not values inherent to our existence in some fashion? If so why is the assumption that the lack of belief in a God equals a lack of values?

                • 5 votes
                Reply#9 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:14 PM EST
                Socrates1

                Fla Pat....It's not a question of whether people live without values...it's what particular values they have.

                Certainly the atheistic countries I mentioned in another article had "values", I just don't support them.

                  #9.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:12 PM EST
                  Fla Pat

                  ....It's not a question of whether people live without values...it's what particular values they have.

                  I am curious as to why the values of someone who does not profess a belief in God is somehow less relevant or unsupportable if in fact they reflect the same Christian values you speak of?

                  • 2 votes
                  #9.2 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:25 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  They certainly are as relevant....in fact that person is me.

                  (Again, for those who wonder why I am late in responding, I don't really know, which is why I am not going through each comment to see if I missed a comment asking for a response.)

                    #9.3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:57 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Baron von Steuben

                    The suggestion always seems to come down to needing an objective source of morality. Now you say that if that source cannot be god, it should be a collective. Our values are personal, unlike those of you to feeble minded to determine your own morality. We are able to conduct ourselves knowing that we cannot expect others to treat us better than we are willing to treat them, and to empathize with those around us. Those of you who must derive your values from external sources are suspect, and I would suggest far too weak to exist without your collectives.

                    • 7 votes
                    Reply#10 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:40 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    One cannot "determine their own morality", as morality has to do with how one relates to others. This suggests that a society must agree on a particular code of morality, or it doesn't meet the definition of a society.

                    • 1 vote
                    #10.1 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:14 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    I admit I might have done a better job in editing, but here is my view, if you missed it before.

                    http://socrates1.newsvine.com/_news/2010/07/04/4614098-is-all-morality-relative

                      #10.2 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:18 PM EST
                      Baron von Steuben

                      We each determine our own sense of morality in accordance with our own culture and personal convictions. There is no objective source of morality, it is relative to the individual, or in your case to the deist cult.

                      • 6 votes
                      #10.3 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:27 PM EST
                      Socrates1

                      As it required an entire article to state my views, here I will simply suggest that I disagree. "Individual" morality in no morality and I say this as one who has his own.

                        #10.4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:21 PM EST
                        Baron von Steuben

                        Collectivism is still relativism, unless you adhere to moral objectivity. In which case, you must believe that there is an objective source of morality, or at the very least that the morality of all within a certain group is objectively the same. In which case, please tell me who exactly has the exact same idea of morality as you do?

                        • 3 votes
                        #10.5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:01 AM EST
                        Socrates1

                        I have already suggested that addressing the concept is a bit more complicated than can be explained in one or two lines.

                        The number one rule of morality is survival. This extends to the group, and thus all the rest of the trappings of "objective morality" come from the group context.

                        As my "idea of morality" includes my survival within the group context, most people seem to have that same idea.

                        • 1 vote
                        #10.6 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:27 PM EST
                        Reply
                        I'm Ringo

                        What the hell is a "New Atheist"?

                        • 7 votes
                        #11 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:09 PM EST
                        Memory-800098

                        It is a obsession that Socrates seems to have with people who have individual thought and who do not believe in a god.

                        • 6 votes
                        #11.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:25 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        No, it's an obsession with those who claim to think independently and yet show no evidence to support it.

                        Generally evidenced by comments such as yours, ignoring the issues, and attempting to eliminate the discussion.

                        I'm Ringo...no offense, but you are not alone in asking a question which would seem fairly easily answered using the tools at your disposal..ie. google.

                        New Atheism is the name given to the ideas promoted by a collection of 21st-century atheist writers who have advocated the view that "religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized, and exposed by rational argument wherever its influence arises."

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

                        Don't like Wikipedia? Google on your own.

                        • 3 votes
                        #11.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:33 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Seems to have been around since at least 2006...

                        http://atheism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=atheism&cdn=religion&tm=26&f=11&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.11/atheism.html

                        • 2 votes
                        #11.3 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:40 PM EST
                        I'm Ringo

                        You're the one talking about "Nathiest" which doesn't seem to have any codified meaning. So what you're saying is that you're making up your own term 'nathiest' instead of having your own use for 'new atheist'.

                        I'm Ringo...no offense, but you are not alone in asking a question which would seem fairly easily answered using the tools at your disposal..ie. google.

                        No offense, but while you can make up words for your own use, don't expect it to be all over the internet.

                        • 6 votes
                        #11.4 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:08 PM EST
                        mrsrachelm

                        Grammar nazi? That's all you've got? Really?

                        • 2 votes
                        #11.5 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:13 PM EST
                        I'm Ringo

                        Grammar nazi? That's all you've got? Really?

                        You seem to have gotten lost. Not a single post on this thread even commenting on grammar in any way.

                        • 6 votes
                        #11.6 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:16 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Speaking of lost...

                        What the hell is a "New Atheist"?

                        You're the one talking about "Nathiest" which doesn't seem to have any codified meaning. So what you're saying is that you're making up your own term 'nathiest' instead of having your own use for 'new atheist'.

                        What? I gave you the answer, so you change the question?

                        • 1 vote
                        #11.7 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:01 AM EST
                        I'm Ringo

                        What? I gave you the answer, so you change the question?

                        Maybe if you really read posts before responding, then you wouldn't find yourself asking nonsensical questions like this.

                        • 1 vote
                        #11.8 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:52 AM EST
                        Socrates1

                        I did...first you ask what a New Athiest is...to which I responded with a link.

                        Next you seem to completely ignore the fact I provided the information, and decide to discuss the term Natheist.

                        • 2 votes
                        #11.9 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:44 PM EST
                        I'm Ringo

                        I did...first you ask what a New Athiest is...to which I responded with a link.

                        Next you seem to completely ignore the fact I provided the information, and decide to discuss the term Natheist.

                        Ah, so you're basing your claim on your own inability to understand what was posted. I get it.

                        Maybe if you A) knew what a question was (hint, there wasn't another) and B) had the basic common sense to know that what you think isn't found in an internet search, it's found by asking you, then you wouldn't be so confused.

                          #11.10 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:23 PM EST
                          Socrates1

                          I'm Ringo...I honestly don't know what the problem is here.

                          You asked a question...I responded.

                          You than attacked me for not responding to your question by introducing another question.

                          Attack me all you want...I'm just not sure what it is you hope to accomplish.

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.11 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:45 PM EST
                          Drakkonis

                          Why bother, Socrates? They are less interested in truth than they are about appearing witty and clever, the standards for which are their own, so they are easily met.

                          • 2 votes
                          #11.12 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:53 PM EST
                          I'm Ringo

                          You than attacked me for not responding to your question by introducing another question.

                          So you're admitting that you didn't even READ my post. There is nothing in there in any way resembling what you claim.

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.13 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:33 AM EST
                          I'm Ringo

                          Why bother, Socrates? They are less interested in truth than they are about appearing witty and clever, the standards for which are their own, so they are easily met.

                          And by "They", you must mean people like you. Thanks for coming along with so much to 'contribute'.

                          I'll never understand why people think trolling the vine makes an interesting hobby.

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.14 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:35 AM EST
                          TiG.

                          Ringo

                          You asked for a definition of new atheist. Socrates provided one. Do you disagree with the definition? If so, please elaborate.

                          • 3 votes
                          #11.15 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:42 AM EST
                          I'm Ringo

                          Ringo

                          You asked for a definition of new atheist. Socrates provided one. Do you disagree with the definition? If so, please elaborate.

                          I asked for and got it. I never said otherwise. No, I have no disagreement with the definition.

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.16 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:09 AM EST
                          TiG.

                          Socrates

                          So Ringo is well aware of your definition for new atheist and the moniker 'nathiest' that you are using. We are good to go, right?

                          • 3 votes
                          #11.17 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:24 AM EST
                          Socrates1

                          Thank you. I believe so.

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.18 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:28 AM EST
                          CL1

                          Sounds like you and TiG are up to something. ☺

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.19 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:59 AM EST
                          WatcherInTheShadows

                          Those two??? Nnnnnaaaahhhhh...... :D

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.20 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:09 AM EST
                          CL1

                          Lol. I just wish I could go, too.

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.21 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:12 AM EST
                          TiG.

                          CL1

                          It never occurred to me that my 'good to go' would be interpreted that way. :-)

                          I just saw Socrates and Ringo stuck in mud with spinning tires and gave them a push so they could continue. Of course if I were to do that consistently across NV with other viners I would need a fleet of tow trucks working 24x7.

                          • 4 votes
                          #11.22 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:10 AM EST
                          CL1

                          TiG----I actually did interpret you in the way you had intended. I was just being silly and metaphorical with your "good to go." ☺ ..Humor is not always easy to convey, I can see how it sounded serious instead of facetious.

                          I thought your 'push' comment was a good one.

                          • 2 votes
                          #11.23 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:39 PM EST
                          TiG.

                          CL1

                          I know. I provided the smiley but that always falls short of facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, etc.

                          • 3 votes
                          #11.24 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:07 PM EST
                          CL1

                          As an aside, I often interpret and use the smiley with a slightly different context, sometimes. Good to bring up the smiley, and how we use them. When I was a new Viner, I thought it meant being 'friendly' and had no idea that it was supposed to mean 'joking.'

                          We need a 'smiley' glossary to accompany the CoH!! ..lol

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.25 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:27 PM EST
                          Socrates1

                          Now that we're back...:)

                          Actually.

                          Of course if I were to do that consistently across NV with other viners I would need a fleet of tow trucks working 24x7.

                          Which is all the more reason I appreciated the effort.

                          • 1 vote
                          #11.26 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:30 PM EST
                          Reply
                          Memory-800098

                          What evidence do you want Socrates? As an atheist I can tell you that I navigate through life nicely without any god, but you refuse to believe it. What is there not to trust about open honest people rejecting god? I live the life, and do not feel my life is worthless or is negative. You, on the other hand toss out claims that atheists or excuse me* natheists* are fragile and are whining vicitms. I know of not one atheist who is fragile or who is not caring and compassionate about life. What do you suggest these *natheists* do to change your perception which would suit you Socrates? Unless they fall to their knees and announce they are saved and convert to Christianity I doubt they could do anything to please you.

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#12 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:20 PM EST
                          MadaTx

                          I think that exactly is what god intends for.

                            #12.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:49 PM EST
                            Socrates1

                            What evidence do you want Socrates?

                            Regarding what?

                            As an atheist I can tell you that I navigate through life nicely without any god, but you refuse to believe it.

                            Not at all, but this obvious attempt to misrepresent my position is evidence of just what I suggest I dislike.....Is this the type of "evidence" you were just requesting?

                            What is there not to trust about open honest people rejecting god?

                            Nothing, assuming open and honest.

                            I live the life, and do not feel my life is worthless or is negative.

                            Good for you.

                            You, on the other hand toss out claims that atheists or excuse me* natheists* are fragile and are whining vicitms.

                            If the shoe fits....On the other hand, it seems you have failed to realize the difference between the two, which suggests you failed to grasp the point I was making.

                            I know of not one atheist who is fragile or who is not caring and compassionate about life.

                            Congratulations. I see a lot of whining about how Christians are "imposing their views" on poor little atheists, but apparently you have been shielded from such nonsense.

                            What do you suggest these *natheists* do to change your perception which would suit you Socrates?

                            Live their lives quietly and without malice?

                            Unless they fall to their knees and announce they are saved and convert to Christianity I doubt they could do anything to please you.

                            Obviously you missed the part about me being an atheist.

                            • 3 votes
                            #12.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:09 AM EST
                            Memory-800098

                            Sorry, I should have stated that you accuse atheists of not showing evidence of independent thought. The fact that atheists can think for themselves and do not require a Bible to map out their life is proof of independent thought.The fact that atheists call out the hideous stories in the bible is independent thought. The fact that we research and do not base our life on pure faith is independent thought. I heard you loud and clear and accusing atheists of whining having a victim's complex.I disagree with you and fail to see where you can validate that statement.Standing up for yourself and your moral and philosophical platform is exercising independent thought.

                            Since I live the life of an atheist and work side by side with atheist friends on a regular basis, I believe it's you that is whining and sniveling about atheists. Why are religious folks only allowed in your mind to use their voice for issues important to them? To stand up for freedom is not whining in my view. Where is the malice for an atheist to voice their opinion and stand up for their constitutional rights? What do you call it when Christians attack atheists and tell them they feel sorry for them or they are evil? Are Christians whining or is this acceptable in your atheist view? Actually, I feel it is impossible for a Christian to impose their views on me. I do take offense when Christians attempt to force their religion within our public schools or our government.

                            Nope, I have read where you claim to be an atheist, I frankly do not believe you are. It certainly doesn't matter what I believe, but when you attack atheists as being victims and whiners you are going to get responses to claim otherwise.

                            • 6 votes
                            #12.3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:02 PM EST
                            Socrates1

                            Sorry, I should have stated that you accuse atheists of not showing evidence of independent thought.

                            Please reread the title.

                            I heard you loud and clear and accusing atheists of whining having a victim's complex.I disagree with you and fail to see where you can validate that statement.

                            That would be because you agree with them, and thus believe those complaints are valid.

                            Standing up for yourself and your moral and philosophical platform is exercising independent thought.

                            1. Not necessarily. Depends on whether those thoughts are your own.

                            2. Same thing for religious folk.

                            3. If it's all personal, why the need to "stand up for yourself" in the public arena. I don't care if you're an atheist.

                            I do take offense when Christians attempt to force their religion within our public schools or our government.

                            Why? Not that I agree with you which is why I consider the above statement to be whining, but, in any event....what happened to....your commitment which you expressed as..

                            Standing up for yourself and your moral and philosophical platform

                            Is that just for you? Christians not included?

                            Nope, I have read where you claim to be an atheist, I frankly do not believe you are.

                            Why? Because I have different views, and you are intolerant when those views are in opposition to yours?

                            It certainly doesn't matter what I believe, but when you attack atheists as being victims and whiners you are going to get responses to claim otherwise.

                            Well sure, probably more whining and claims of victimhood.

                            • 2 votes
                            #12.4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:54 PM EST
                            MadaTx

                            Another hopeless atheist couldn't tell the difference between theism and religion.

                            • 1 vote
                            #12.5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:43 AM EST
                            Reply
                            warrior wheatman

                            I like your (?) term 'natheist'. I read the thread, looking for more description. I thought for sure that somewhere you'd stated you were christian, so this thread left me more confused.

                              Reply#13 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:21 AM EST
                              WatcherInTheShadows

                              @Socrates1:

                              I dig up an article at some point you may find interesting.

                              A dead end on the God debate

                              The New Humanist debate at the RSA said much about the mistakes of New Atheism but offered little direction for the future.

                              Where next for the debate about God? This was the question posed by the New Humanist, hosting a debate at the RSA. The magazine is not averse to a little New Atheism – which made it surprising that not a lot was said about where next, though a whole lot was said about what a mistake the New Atheism has been.

                              Marilynne Robinson was articulate on how the New Atheism erases the human by treating us as crudely material entities. She recalled William James's observation that facts should be regarded as gifts, because they afford us invaluable glimpses of a totality we cannot see. She had a great quip. The theist looks at phenomena like the fine tuning and thinks, amazing. The (old) atheist looks at phenomena like the fine tuning and thinks, amazing. The New Atheist looks at phenomena like the fine tuning and thinks, well that's that answered then.

                              Second to speak was Jonathan Rée, an atheist who doesn't much care for the description. Parascience, he said, using Robinson's coinage, is the stories the New Atheists tell themselves about the triumphant progress of science, and which are rather like the nationalistic stories rehearsed in nationalistic politics.

                              We're enlightened – you're not. He also noted that the first time the phrase "New Atheism" was used was back in the 17th century, in response to Spinoza's presumed atheism. Not much that's new then.

                              Third on was Roger Scruton, who noted that what the New Atheism is selling – freedom from religion – is naive. This is so because it's hard for human beings to live well without a sense of the transcendental ground of things, because only then do we have a keen sense of being subjects, not objects. That we live in a disenchanted and desacralised world – you only have to think of matters like sex or death, which were sacred for our ancestors – explains why we find it so hard to live well.

                              All in all, the implicit message was that the New Atheism is anti-humanist, if to be a humanist is to care about human flourishing. And, of course, the New Atheism claims to speak for humanism. Such analysis was only to be expected, given the speakers. But I did wonder why the New Humanist had no defender of New Atheism on the panel. The editor does seem to be having doubts about whether the defence is worth listening to.

                              Little wonder many in the audience started to shift in their seats and a certain frustration emerged during the questions. Where was the condemnation of faith schools? Where was the championing of science? Where was the mocking of metaphysics? Individual questioners proceeded to rehearse canards such as that people of faith never question their beliefs (unlike scientists). They received rounds of applause for so asking.

                              Which left me feeling that even if the New Atheism has helped put religious questions back on the agenda, that's no guarantee of better answers, or even better questions.

                              http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/sep/22/dead-end-god-debate-new-humanist

                                Reply#14 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:02 AM EST
                                Socrates1

                                And I wasn't even invited.......Nice find....Thank you.

                                Warrior....perhaps you are confused because I continue to support the Christian Value System? I see no conflict. I like the liberties and freedoms the Christian God provides. My basic problem is/was that I just couldn't logically continue to believe...but I see no need to force that opinion on others. In fact, it is only recently that I have been as vocal as I am about being an atheist, for that same reason.

                                • 3 votes
                                #14.1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:29 AM EST
                                WatcherInTheShadows

                                Glad to share.

                                • 1 vote
                                #14.2 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:53 AM EST
                                Reply
                                thelopes

                                Does this article read as anything but a long strawman scenario to anybody else?

                                • 4 votes
                                Reply#15 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:27 PM EST
                                Socrates1

                                I'd assume to every natheist out there.

                                • 1 vote
                                #15.1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:31 PM EST
                                thelopes

                                You've setup a vague group heading, already displaying bias as you identify what you claim is their position, and then attack them for the position you've arranged them. Haven't you?

                                I mean, burn your effigies all you want, but don't pretend like it is anything serious or worthwhile when you do.

                                • 3 votes
                                #15.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:10 PM EST
                                Socrates1

                                Case in point?

                                  #15.3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:24 PM EST
                                  thelopes

                                  Case in point?

                                  Wow - are you actually, finally, approaching the use of an example of the thing you want to attack? Moving away from the effigy and vagueries? I applaud you (though I'm still looking for that defined "Christian Value System" I requested from you some time ago).

                                  You want to use me? So - let's explore this - so now you should illustrate how I've fallen into any of the traits your article complains about. Even one, I'll wait. How about one example of intolerance?

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #15.4 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:35 PM EST
                                  Socrates1

                                  Well, on the one hand I have explained the Christian Value System, on several occasions.

                                  Failure to realize this suggests you have "fallen into one of the traits" I suggest.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #15.5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:38 PM EST
                                  thelopes

                                  Well, on the one hand I have explained the Christian Value System, on several occasions.

                                  I must've missed it. I've spent time away from Newsvine and would never claim to have read everything. Could you identify one of the occasions? Even give an article title and I'll read it.

                                  Failure to realize this suggests you have "fallen into one of the traits" I suggest.

                                  Which trait would that be?

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #15.6 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:42 PM EST
                                  Socrates1

                                  You have missed it, even when the comment was in answer to a question posed by you.

                                  I'm sorry, but I find our discussions to be unproductive, even in the sense of providing information for other who might follow our conversations, and thus wonder what your reasoning is in engaging me in the first place.

                                    #15.7 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:45 PM EST
                                    thelopes

                                    You have missed it, even when the comment was in answer to a question posed by you.

                                    Okay - was it straightforward - like "The Christian Value System is... a, b, c, and we can't forget d." or was it presented more cryptically? In my experience, you sometimes state you've presented ideas without being very direct.

                                    Could you care to provide a synopsis?

                                    I'm sorry, but I find our discussions to be unproductive, even in the sense of providing information for other who might follow our conversations, and thus wonder what your reasoning is in engaging me in the first place.

                                    Well, Newsvine is discussion, so why not.

                                    Now you've apparently directly called me out on being one of your 'natheists' and so I've obviously taken on the herculean task of getting multiple sentences from you to support it.

                                    So, failure to realize you've supposedly answered a question falls into what trait of the above article of "natheist" negative traits?

                                    Please, illustrate your bogeyman with examples - I'm even welcoming you to use me for it.

                                    • 4 votes
                                    #15.8 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:59 PM EST
                                    Socrates1

                                    thelopes...how much more polite can I be in suggesting that you might wish to look for another discussion? For whatever reason, our methods of communication do not seem to mix well.

                                      #15.9 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:16 PM EST
                                      thelopes

                                      thelopes...how much more polite can I be in suggesting that you might wish to look for another discussion?

                                      Okay - your refusal to illustrate your claims with any examples just supports it as a strawman. You need it to be faceless so it can't become an actual discussion.

                                      • 3 votes
                                      #15.10 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:38 PM EST
                                      Socrates1

                                      No, I just didn't want to suggest that further discussion, based on past experience, would be pointless.

                                      Virtually by definition, a natheist will not be able to realize that he/she fits the definition.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #15.11 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:40 PM EST
                                      thelopes

                                      Virtually by definition, a natheist will not be able to realize that he/she fits the definition.

                                      Convenient!

                                      Wouldn't want your forgone conclusions to be challenged, of course.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #15.12 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:05 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      teufelhund

                                      Soc,

                                      Been reading this entire series of articles, and I couldn't agree more. Although I was unfamiliar with the natheist term, I do agree with it's definition. Ironically, the attitudes you mentioned in the entire series was on full display in the comments, but I think some of these folks running around lack any real comprehension skills. Trying to be witty instead of actually understanding anything...

                                      Anyways, like I said, I was unfamiliar with the term. Until now I had referred to them as militant atheists. I understand a lot of the attitude that has been on display because I held much of the same viewpoints and expressed much of the same rhetoric. Of course, that was over 25 years ago and I was in the 7th grade, so I guess we all have to grow up some time and have a clear view of the world around us. I'm still an atheist, but I worry about myself and how things affect me, not what religion others choose to believe in...well, except that one-string banjo I'm usually playing on the vine...

                                      The part I dig about these articles is that you announce what is about to happen in the comments, it plays out that way, and then those folks in disagreement have no clue that they are doing/acting the way which you mentioned they would...all while constantly pointing it out while they have no clue that it's happening.

                                      Highly entertaining stuff...

                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#16 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:19 PM EST
                                      Socrates1

                                      The part I dig about these articles is that you announce what is about to happen in the comments, it plays out that way, and then those folks in disagreement have no clue that they are doing/acting the way which you mentioned they would...all while constantly pointing it out while they have no clue that it's happening.

                                      Can't think of a better analysis, or compliment....

                                      Highly entertaining stuff...

                                      Sadly, yes...but, I'm happy to serve.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #16.1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:34 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      primate guy

                                      So natheist is to atheist what feminazi is to feminist, a tool to make someone with a legitimate position less credible.

                                      Atheists are unpopular and face descrimination. An indivdual who publicly questions the divinity of Jesus has little or no chance of becoming elected President. Most people would say this has always been the case, because of the "liberal" history taught in schools, but several of our early Presidents would have considered this position a sign of enlightened thinking free from the superstition of the dark ages.

                                      • 3 votes
                                      Reply#17 - Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:19 PM EDT
                                      Socrates1

                                      Thank you for your comment.

                                      So natheist is to atheist what feminazi is to feminist, a tool to make someone with a legitimate position less credible.

                                      I don't wish to put words in your mouth, so I can ask you for clarification, or provide my understanding of what you are implying. My take is that you are suggesting that you think that as an atheist I am "attacking" natheists to make my position less credible?

                                      Atheists are unpopular and face descrimination. An indivdual who publicly questions the divinity of Jesus has little or no chance of becoming elected President. Most people would say this has always been the case, because of the "liberal" history taught in schools, but several of our early Presidents would have considered this position a sign of enlightened thinking free from the superstition of the dark ages.

                                      As someone who believes that my personal views are personal, I really don't see the problem.

                                        #17.1 - Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:11 PM EDT
                                        Drakkonis

                                        What makes no sense to me is Atheists believe they are the party of reason and logic, but don't get that when they use terms like "superstition, farie tales, invisible man in the sky, fables, myths" and so on to describe the personally held beliefs of the majority of people it makes people not like them.

                                        How do you expect to call someone a superstitious primitive and expect them to accept you?

                                        • 4 votes
                                        #17.2 - Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:32 PM EDT
                                        TiG.

                                        Drakkonis

                                        How do you expect to call someone a superstitious primitive and expect them to accept you?

                                        Well said.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #17.3 - Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:37 PM EDT
                                        primate guy

                                        What makes no sense to me is Atheists believe they are the party of reason and logic...

                                        Atheism is not a party, it is a philosophy based upon a scientific and/or humanistic worldview. It is telling that the term "party" is used. It has no political affiliation whatsoever. Just ask Ayn Rand.

                                        If the recent trend continues, in 100 years, revisionist historians will probably try to make her a devout Christian.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #17.4 - Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:43 AM EDT
                                        primate guy

                                        How do you expect to call someone a superstitious primitive and expect them to accept you?

                                        I must concede that is a valid point. It is accurate and I am not belittling it, but it brings me to a similar question

                                        How do you expect to tell someone that they are going to burn in eternity for their beliefs, not their actions, but their beliefs?

                                        The statement presented would be more universally applicable if it was from a polytheist. When atheists call all religions superstition, it is hard to feel sorry for the religion that also calls every other religion superstition (and often satanic and demonic as well), except for their own particular religion.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #17.5 - Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:52 AM EDT
                                        Socrates1

                                        The use of the word party was meant to be singular, as in "the party of the first part brought suit against the party of the second part". Sorry for the confusion.

                                        How do you expect to tell someone that they are going to burn in eternity for their beliefs, not their actions, but their beliefs?

                                        Because that is the belief system? One cannot use another's value system to excuse departing from one's own.

                                          #17.6 - Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:59 PM EDT
                                          TiG.

                                          Primate

                                          How do you expect to tell someone that they are going to burn in eternity for their beliefs, not their actions, but their beliefs?

                                          Well said

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #17.7 - Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:24 PM EDT
                                          Socrates1

                                          And?

                                          What do I care if someone in, for example, Borneo thinks that all white people will burn in hell forever?

                                            #17.8 - Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:02 PM EDT
                                            primate guy

                                            Really, I did not know that you are now omnipresent, able to decipher the mind and intent of Drakkonis. You are not Drakkonis, are you? If so, I encourage you to drop the Socrates persona, and keep the new one. Or I guess you could create several personas, in order to create the impression of support for your contentions.

                                            However, assuming Drakkonis is a different person from yourself, he or she was describing the comments that some Atheists tend to make that alienate the religious. I interpreted that as an attempt to describe an impediment to dialogue between Atheists and the most popular religion in the English-speaking world, Christianity. I described to him another impediment to the dialogue between the two groups.

                                            In my estimation Drakkonis was making a valid point. I leave it to you to describe what any of this has to do with race relations, the belief system of island people, or any other insipid little straw man you may cook up in order to obfuscate the point of a conversation.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #17.9 - Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:47 PM EDT
                                            Socrates1

                                            What valid point? The same one I addressed?

                                              #17.10 - Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:37 PM EDT
                                              primate guy

                                              The point that an insult to a belief system is not a good starting point to a dialogue between two groups of people wth differing opinions.

                                              Your approach to the Socratic method is useful for clarifying one's ideas, but ultimately it is only a loose interpretation, since Socratic method, sometimes called elenctic method, is based upon questions grounded in fundamental beliefs, not vague assertions and labels.

                                              I must admit, that my initial post on this thread is somewhat baiting, so this time I must take some responsibility for the train wreck you call argument.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #17.11 - Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:09 PM EDT
                                              Drakkonis

                                              How do you expect to tell someone that they are going to burn in eternity for their beliefs, not their actions, but their beliefs?

                                              This is just as valid, primate guy. To me, it highlights the problem with the entire discussion. People have their beliefs. For various reasons, some valid, some not, they are not content to keep it to themselves but feel compelled to persuade others. This is not necessarily a bad thing. However, where the line gets crossed perhaps is how much effort or how much someone feels they have the right to imose their views on others is the sticking point.

                                              Further, I think one's motivation for extending their beliefs to others matters. When one says another is going to hell, why and what motivates them to say it? Is it ever right to say it? Likewise, is it ever ok to say my faith is a superstitious fantasy? What is the motive behind saying it? What's the emotion behind it?

                                              I suppose the only thing about being human that is standard amoung us all is the lable "human". Beyond that, we all are different in some way. We all are islands in some sense of the word. Perhaps our best hope is to realize this and let each make their own choice concerning the issue of God.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              #17.12 - Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:10 PM EDT
                                              Reply
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